2:52:20
ECT Open Theism debate
- Thread starter Tambora
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2:52:20
Perhaps though, in the light of your post, what wouldn't be pointless, would be debating what the sharpest, soundest approach ought to be.
Even more so, what might be a better means of identifying it, to begin with :chuckle:
You'd think that if you could gain agreement on the approach, that the resulting assertions would all agree also.
Too many individual variables.
Case in point, two people within a same basic school of thought, but who nevertheless bring a different amount of time in the study of one thing or another to the table.
Which is where being able to agree to disagree is important.
As in Romans 14:5's "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
Often possible only when, say, Rom. 5:6-8 is actually focused on.
In the first one?
marhig
Well-known member
No I'm not forgetting God's wisdom, I'm saying that God cannot be tempted so how can he have the capacity to sin?
Satan tempts us to sin, God cannot be tempted so if God cannot be tempted by satan, then he doesn't have the capacity to sin.
I'm not sure that the grammar of IJohn 4:8 allows your interpretation of it. God is love is a very definitive statement. In terms of grammar it's like saying, My shirt is blue. Saying "my shirt is blue" excludes my shirt from being any color but blue. There is other textual evidence along this line too. Paul said, While we were yet sinners Christ died for us. John said, God so loved the world that He gave..... In Jeremiah God says about Himself--I have loved thee with an everlasting love, therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Also in Jeremiah we see God threatening Jerusalem with destruction. The Jews of that day were so corrupt that God told Jeremiah to go through the streets of Jerusalem and see if he could find one upright man, and if he could God said He wouldn't destroy Jerusalem. Jeremiah obviously failed to find a single upright man in all of Jerusalem for God destroyed it. Yet in later chapters of Jeremiah we see God still expressing His love for the Jews. So did God destroy Jerusalem in anger or hatred of the Jews? No. It was His anger and hatred for what they doing and becoming through giving themselves completely over to evil. How do we know that? Jeremiah 31:1-3.
The most common example of God hating someone is Esau. Yet was it really Esau that God hated, or was it what Esau represented and did that God hated? I think Paul gives us a pretty good clue as to the answer to that question.
So, was it Esau's selling of his birthright, his total disregard for the promised Messiah to come through his line of descent and the spiritual blessings that came with that birthright, that God hated, or was it Esau himself? I think we can find the answer to that in what Paul said that I quoted from him earlier in this post: While we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Esau knew what everything the birthright meant, and yet he held it at so low a value that he sold it for a bowl of lentil stew.... I think it is that behavior/thinking that God hated in Esau, rather than Esau himself. For evidence for that look at God's reaction to Cain after he had killed Abel. God tried reasoning with Cain but Cain wanted to have nothing to do with God or repenting for murdering his own brother. And God's reaction to that? He put a mark upon Cain so that no one could mistake him for someone else and kill him. God insured Cain's life here on earth. Is that hatred? Or is that love for a rebellious sinner?
This is what I mean by we must modify all things so that no scripture is falsified by another verse. I think we often don't study deep enough. We look for surface answers and are then satisified them, but the Bible is written by an infinite God who said, Come now and let us reason together.....
So, is it possible to love, and yet get angry over something that is without excuse? Of course it is. If it wasn't we couldn't say that any parent has ever loved any of their children for I have yet to know of a parent who at some time didn't get angry with their child, even though they loved that child dearly.
Is it possible for God to be purely love and yet be angry? Of course it is. I can't imagine God not being angry over child abuse, or murder, or bullying, or mass murder. Is that incompatible with love? Not at all. It is love that causes Him to be angry for it is His creation that is being harmed needlessly. Is it possible for God to be purely love and yet hate? Yes. God hates that which causes us to destroy each other, to hurt each other. He hates sin with a passion. Yet at the same time we see what God thinks of us and how He pities us and understands us in many places in the Bible. He pities sinners so much He died for us. For the entire world, not just for those who by faith are justified. For God so loved the world. Unless, like the Calvinists, you believe it is only for the elect that He died.
Heb 4:15
Yes. Sorry. I've only seen the first one so far.
I was not interpreting 1 John 4:8.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Can't or Shall not?
Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Deut. 6:15-16 (For the Lord thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the Lord thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. 16 Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
Deut. 6:15-16 (For the Lord thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the Lord thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. 16 Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
Perhaps Marhig did not realize those verses were in scripture.
And ....
1 Corinthians 10:9
(9) Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Hebrews 3:9
(9) When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Ask Mr. Religion
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God's glory is his revealed perfection: attributes, promises, noble effects of His power and wisdom.
God’s glory is the outward radiance of the intrinsic beauty and greatness of His manifold perfections.
"For my own sake, for my own sake I act," says the Lord. "My glory I will not give to another!" (Isaiah 48:11)
How can God be loving and yet be utterly devoted to “seeking his own” glory and praise and joy? How can God be for us if he is so utterly for himself?
Because God is unique as an all-glorious, totally self-sufficient Being, he must be for himself if he is to be for us. The rules of humility that belong to a creature cannot apply in the same way to its Creator. If God should turn away from himself as the Source of infinite joy, he would cease to be God. He would deny the infinite worth of his own glory. He would imply that there is something more valuable outside himself. He would commit idolatry.
See also: https://www.gotquestions.org/jealous-God.html
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glorydaz
Well-known member
I was just about to come on here and admit that was a stupid question I'd ask. It was so broad. But, you did a fine job answering it. So, since God is Triune, and relational already, it seems that fact alone would cause Him to cherish His creation as He would not if He was not Triune.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I'm just trying to understand what you're saying here.
Do you think bringing many sons to glory supports that? Surely that doesn't subtract from His glory to expand His love.
Heb. 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Ask Mr. Religion
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We are sinful (morally corrupt)—God is morally perfect; in fact, he is what goodness is
We are mortal—God is eternal; in fact, he is what life is
We are finite in power and wisdom; God is omnipotent and omniscient; in fact, he is what power and wisdom are
In other words, when people seek to glorify themselves, they are trying to “show off” their sinfulness, their mortality, their limited power and wisdom. But those aren’t things worth showing off. They should not be exalted because doing so makes them out to be better than they are.
By contrast, when God seeks to glorify himself, he is exalting his perfect goodness, life, power, wisdom and so on. In other words, for God to glorify himself is for God to reveal his perfection. And needless to say, perfection is something worth “showing off”, as it were, because it is…perfect! It is the best there can be; the thing we would always want more of. To exalt God’s attributes is not to make them out to be better than they are, but to accurately express that there is nothing better.
In fact, to not show off perfection would itself be imperfect. It would be trying to hide or downplay the ultimate good—making it out to be worse than it is. This is why a God who did not seek his own glory would not be worthy of worship. A God who does seek his own glory is, by definition, seeking the ultimate good; and a God who does not seek the ultimate good is not perfect.
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glorydaz
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Well, that doesn't sound like what I was thinking you were saying, so thanks for clarifying.
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Interplanner
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His grace was deserved by the God-man Christ; it is not deserved by humans apart from that/him.