ECT Open Theism debate

[Evil.Eye.*{@}*]

What about people who hate God and want to destroy all His believers? And won't repent?

The sword will come in the end, and governments and men will be empowered to stop them before that time of the sword... but, until the appointed time of God’s desire, when darkness will close in and all Love will be eradicated by the hate of mankind...

We must preserve as much life as possible and only visit with the sword when forced!

We are lambs to the slaughter... no matter how well prepared to fight back we are. We have some victories... but the wicked and God hating are growing in strength by the appointed will of God, as scripture says.

Exodus 14:14 is our best hope, and a willing heart to strike down those that would torment the week and poor.

 

[meshak]

Proverbs 24:17 Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles,
18 lest the LORD see it and be displeased,
and turn away his anger from him.

19 Fret not yourself because of evildoers,
and be not envious of the wicked,
20 for the evil man has no future;
the lamp of the wicked will be put out.​

So... yes... God is Love and Love (Like the movie “Death Sentence”) can eradicate and eliminate utter wickedness.

The problem... is people that are wicked... that’s all humanity... that are forgiven... (He died for all, though some reject Him) speak of JUSTICE and rejoicing. The Saints in Heaven asking God... “How Much Longer?!?” Aren’t us ... here and now.

And... the events from scripture you use to gloat over the destruction of people... are set in apocalyptic climate. You literally bulldoze over the here and now and set up as a judge... here and now!

If God senses your deep eager willingness for bloodshed (And I will confess that love of bloodshed is one of my darkest weaknesses)... you could be numbered amongst the unredeemable wicked that are blackened in heart with hate for mankind and void of unconditional love, compassion and forgiveness that was imputed by God Himself!

It sounds cool to want to “Re-Criminalize” sins of the flesh (I don’t forget where people come from, Clete... I forgive... but I remember the heart and intent that people reveal... by their own mouth)... but we are all guilty of sin that deserves the death penalty... 1 John 1:8 and Jesus paying that penalty makes this clear!

I am willing to kill a man that would strike down a Pacifist like [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION] or anyone who would harm the weak... but God forbid I feed my soul’s bloodlust!

Our DUTY as the Body is to LOVE... and yes Clete that’s with a soft, sensitive heart of flesh! Elsewise... we become Great Sharks of flesh devouring urges that have seared consciences!

The Moral Majority Lies that are political and infused into the Body are making the Light of Christ... the very Light of Love go dim!

When the Body fully renounces Love... it will be fully salt and as salt that is thrown on a crop... it will prevent any growth from occurring ever again!

The flavor of our salt is LOVE Clete.

We as Christians could be Doctrinally correct in every point and believe... but per 1 Corinthians 13... if we don’t have unconditional Love that Jesus teaches... we all are less worthy than the lowest of all! No! This rejoicing in anyone’s demise... in the here and now... is dark souled immortality!

The blood stained hands that remember every person they have killed and weep over it... those are men of God!

The bloodstained hands that have feet that rush to take more blood... THE Devil owns and will take them!

Violence is Satan’s sweetest candy! Violence is the most devastating when God brings it, but Clete... God brings it with tears and sorrow! He will only be rejoicing over the peace that the possible annihilation of the hateful, bloodthirsty wickeds’ participation in creation... will surely bring.

Be weary, lest you forget all are of origin of God... thus all are His creations and children.

I served my country and was willing to kill! But, Clete, To perpetually rejoice over any death is to glorify the handy work of the Grim! It is glory the Lord of the Flies! It is to exalt the work of the Dragon!

God came once and could have Killed like no other we can comprehend... but the system of Satan Killed Him...

Do the Spiritual Math! The Jews expected a conqueror and got a pacifist! If we as the Body Ache for a blood thirsty King... we too may find ourselves on the outside... looking in!

You can be a writer

BTW, I like your avatar. It makes me chuckle every time when I see it.

 

[meshak]

What about people who hate God and want to destroy all His believers? And won't repent?

All wicked ones will be destroyed, not bunrned for eternity.

 

[Ktoyou]

From what I've been reading, people don't look like they are joking regarding others being chucked into an eternal fire. And even worse, they seem to be eagerly awaiting it to happen!

How is that funny?

Why don't you jump in a lake and cool off? You are becoming a nuisance and pest!:mmph:

 

[Danoh]

If we read the Bible whole contextually which is God and Jesus are love, we cannot go wrong.

If you're talking your copy of the New World Translation put out by the Watch Tower or its corrupt influence on your "understanding" than no, you are neither actually reading "the Bible" nor "whole contextually."

Which makes you an enemy of the following no matter how wonderful you might be as a person.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

And not only an enemy of that, but a fool on her way to the wrath also mentioned there, "unless you have believed in vain" that is to say, the false, works based "gospel" the Watch Tower is infamous for, and that you are ever spreading the "mine own righteousness...dung" of all over TOL.

For verse 8's "love" is clearly a reality in contrast to the equal reality that is verse 9's "wrath."

And of those two - it is NOT its "love" that it clearly asserts awaits anyone who would add works for salvation to the above, as some sort of a requirement within it, BUT...its "wrath" that awaits such.

All I can add to that is Rom. 5:6-8 towards you.

 

[Derf]

The sword will come in the end, and governments and men will be empowered to stop them before that time of the sword... but, until the appointed time of God’s desire, when darkness will close in and all Love will be eradicated by the hate of mankind...

We must preserve as much life as possible and only visit with the sword when forced!

We are lambs to the slaughter... no matter how well prepared to fight back we are. We have some victories... but the wicked and God hating are growing in strength by the appointed will of God, as scripture says.

Exodus 14:14 is our best hope, and a willing heart to strike down those that would torment the week and poor.

You're mixing two things. One thing is who does the avenging/judging/execution or whatever. I'm not offering to do it. I don't necessarily want to do it. God seems capable, but He also called on us to avenge murder: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image."[Gen 9:6 ESV]

If we are not willing to do this, we are then purposefully disobeying God's commands (hear that, [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION]?. Or I guess you can just say you disregard that scripture and pretend it doesn't exist).

The other is whether we rejoice at God's righteous judgment. If we can't do that, are we really loving God and His will for this earth?

 

[marhig]

Do you also reject the scriptures that tell of painful judgment? And the psalms that rejoice at enemies' destruction?

Hope for others, yes, but should we hope for those that are in the process of being destroyed by fire? Or should we acknowledge God's wisdom and love in the destruction of the wicked?

Was it wrong for the psalmist to write this:
O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed, blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us! [Psa 137:8 ESV]
Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock! [Psa 137:9 ESV]

Did Abraham really want the town of Sodom saved, or did he just want his nephew (and family) saved? And what reason did he give to God for saving the town--that some would repent?

Exactly, people are already being destroyed by fire now and we should have hope that Christ through those born of God can pull them out.

As for Sodom, God listened to Abraham and he was willing to save the whole city of the wicked if he could find only 10 righteous people in it, now there's mercy and he listened to his servant.

I know God isn't soft derf, and I know he won't be mocked. But I don't believe it's right to want to see people suffer like some do. I believe that we are to speak the truth and live by Gods word ourselves, and the word judges the heart and then leave all eternal judgement to God.

And God will have more mercy for those sinning who don't know him, than toward those who know the truth and disobey him.

 

[marhig]

No one would rightly enjoy seeing someone be punished for anything unless they deserved it, marhig. And it is perfectly natural for people to enjoy it when the wicked are justly punished. That's the reason movies like "Ransom" and "Die Hard" work and why movies like "Unforgiven" don't. The point, however, is that the guy getting it has to actually be deserving of what he's getting or else anyone's enjoyment of it would turn into something grotesque and ungodly.

God commands us repeatedly, throughout the scriptures to "practice justice". I suggest you snap to it and stop formulating your doctrine based on your emotional state of mind.

Resting in Him,
Clete

It might be perfectly natural in the flesh, but that's not what Jesus taught us to be like, especially if we walk in the Spirit.

Jesus taught us to love and forgive

Love your enemies, do good to those that hate you, bless those that curse you and pray for those who dispitefully use you. Bless and not curse. And he teaches us to forgive and then we will be forgiven.

As I said I know that God isn't soft, but I don't will the distruction of any man. And I leave the fate of the wicked in God's capable hands. I know that I must look at myself first and make sure I'm living right before God. And God's word and the life of Christ will judge us all. We are to get our hearts right in this lifetime through Christ, we are all sinners fallen short of the glory of God, and we should be careful how we judge one another, we should partake in the sufferings of Christ, use the sword of the Spirit for righteous judgement, which is the word of God and leave the rest to God.

 

[meshak]

We are to get our hearts right in this lifetime through Christ, we are all sinners fallen short of the glory of God, and we should be careful how we judge one another, we should partake in the sufferings of Christ, use the sword of the Spirit for righteous judgement, which is the word of God and leave the rest to God.

right on, sister.

We should strive to be like Him in this fallen world or we will not be accepted into peaceful and loving world of His kingdom.

 

[meshak]

If you're talking your copy of the New World Translation put out by the Watch Tower or its corrupt influence on your "understanding" than no, you are neither actually reading "the Bible" nor "whole contextually."

I adopt godly interpretation.

So you cannot silence me with your kind of insult.

Watch out for your comfortable faith, friend.

You are in wide road.

Jesus says narrow gate is the way to life.

 

[marhig]

right on, sister.

We should strive to be like Him in this fallen world or we will not be accepted into peaceful and loving world of His kingdom.

Amen!

Love overcomes hatred and we overcome evil with good.

God is goodness and love, and with his love within our hearts we can overcome anything in this world of sin.

Jesus said love one another as I have loved you, love is the key and I don't mean a sloppy happy clappy love, but love in truth and righteousness through our Lord Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy spirit. To love our enemy isn't all to be huggy cuddly, but to turn the other cheek and show mercy and forgiveness, and if they ever need help and be there for them. And if Christ is in our hearts, he will help us to do as he taught, and he will help us to overcome the world.

He who is within us, is stronger than he who is of the world.

 

[meshak]

Amen!

Love overcomes hatred and we overcome evil with good.

God is goodness and love, and with his love within our hearts we can overcome anything in this world of sin.

Jesus said love one another as I have loved you, love is the key and I don't mean a sloppy happy clappy love, but love in truth and righteousness through our Lord Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy spirit. To love our enemy isn't all to be huggy cuddly, but to turn the other cheek and show mercy and forgiveness, and if they ever need help and be there for them. And if Christ is in our hearts, he will help us to do as he taught, and he will help us to overcome the world.

He who is within us, is stronger than he who is of the world.

Yes.

 

[Danoh]

I adopt godly interpretation.

So you cannot silence me with your kind of insult.

Watch out for your comfortable faith, friend.

You are in wide road.

Jesus says narrow gate is the way to life.

That was not meant as an insult; rather as a call out of their reinvented; changed, so called "Bible."

To call you a fool for being so willingly close minded to even bother to look into that much, is to point out to you exactly what you are being.

And only a fool would right off conclude their being called one is an insult and not exactly what they are better off hearing about themselves that they might then reflect on the possible validity of towards changing that about themselves, if such turns out to be the actual case.

You're all about "luv" and seeing it everywhere - so why can't you see it in my honesty with you on this?

Why?

Because even this so called "luv" you hold to is as one-sided as you claim others are being towards you.

You're clueless. Plain and simple.

Accept its possibility, towards then looking into how you might actually "get a clue."

What are you - four years old; that a little constructive criticism is automatically cause for you to wah, wah, wah - "where is the love you said was mine o mine til the end of time..." :chuckle:

Tell ya what - just "luv" us love-less fools into loving you.

"Its the power of love" - Luther Vandross :chuckle:

Whoops, now I've gone all Epoisses on you :rotfl:

But seriously, women, take a chill pill whenever you "don't feel the luv."

Better yet, try believing Rom. 5:6-8 :thumb:

 

[Clete]

Good point!
Yes, that would be the logical conclusion of their stance if they insist that GOD is everywhere at all times.
Which creates a quandary.
GOD would have to be bound to be simultaneously present inside and outside of time at every moment since creation.
GOD could not "move" in and out of time, but would have to always be wholly present in both.

Yes, thus He is, according to them, the unmoved mover.

What really get me is that they cannot prove timelessness with scripture.
They add that to GOD even though scripture never does.

This is why we consider the Open Theism movement to be the continuation of the Reformation. The Reformation Mark I served to remove much of the extra-biblical Roman influence from Christian doctrine. THe Reformation Mark II is about removing the extra-biblical Greek influences from Christian doctrine.

The motive is the same and the method is somewhat similar, only the topics (i.e. the doctrines) are different.

BTW, Clete, we have another thread going on that you might find interesting:
Time & Anthropomonorphism with GOD
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127701-Time-amp-Anthropomorphism-with-GOD

I'll check it out.

Clete

 

[Clete]

It might be perfectly natural in the flesh, but that's not what Jesus taught us to be like, especially if we walk in the Spirit.

Jesus taught us to love and forgive

Forgiveness is offered to those who repent, marhig. Those who repent won't find themselves in Hell.

Love your enemies, do good to those that hate you, bless those that curse you and pray for those who dispitefully use you. Bless and not curse. And he teaches us to forgive and then we will be forgiven.

I will not make any attempt to establish this because I know you would receive it even if I tried but Jesus was teaching people how to live during the soon expected Millennial Kingdom. It wasn't intended to be applied in the manner you are applying it. We are not Jews, marhig. We are not subject to the Law. We have no king or priest. We don't have to tithe or become circumcised. All of which you would do and practice if you consistently applied Jesus' teachings the way you apply the sermon on the mount.

As I said I know that God isn't soft, but I don't will the distruction of any man.

Neither do I!

I'd very much prefer everyone come to Christ. Preaching a softer version of Hell, however, will accomplish the opposite of what you intend.

And I leave the fate of the wicked in God's capable hands.

That same God says that He's going to leave the fate of the wicked in YOUR hands on judgment day.

I know that I must look at myself first and make sure I'm living right before God.

Which includes practicing justice.

And God's word and the life of Christ will judge us all. We are to get our hearts right in this lifetime through Christ, we are all sinners fallen short of the glory of God, and we should be careful how we judge one another, we should partake in the sufferings of Christ, use the sword of the Spirit for righteous judgement, which is the word of God and leave the rest to God.

You are not following your own advice.

Clete

 

[JudgeRightly]

I wouldn't rejoice at seeing anyone suffer. I just leave all that in God's hands as he's the righteous judge.

Marhig, You say that God is loving, right? do you also agree that we should love without hypocrisy?

If yes, then answer this:

Which of the following is more loving:

1. Feeding, clothing, medicating, educating, entertaining, legally representing, and forgiving the criminal who raped and murdered a young girl

2. Swifly and painfully executing said rapist murderer.

 

[Evil.Eye.*{@}*]

You're mixing two things. One thing is who does the avenging/judging/execution or whatever. I'm not offering to do it. I don't necessarily want to do it. God seems capable, but He also called on us to avenge murder: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image."[Gen 9:6 ESV]

If we are not willing to do this, we are then purposefully disobeying God's commands (hear that, [MENTION=13959]meshak[/MENTION]?. Or I guess you can just say you disregard that scripture and pretend it doesn't exist).

The other is whether we rejoice at God's righteous judgment. If we can't do that, are we really loving God and His will for this earth?

Hi Derf,

I am not mixing two things. I have clearly stated that there is a place where we have to take up the sword. It's called "deadly force". I have also noted that governments must protect the innocent and weak, meek and mild. As for justice of God... we, in the here and now, must remember Jesus' forgiveness and love in all we do. This includes justice.

The apocalyptic finality of things, is not the here and now.

I hope this assists in clearing up my miscommunication.

 

[Derf]

All wicked ones will be destroyed, not bunrned for eternity.

That's a different topic, but whether they are destroyed or burned for eternity, will you rejoice that God's will is done to them? Will you rejoice in the destruction of the wicked in that case?

 

[Danoh]

That's a different topic, but whether they are destroyed or burned for eternity, will you rejoice that God's will is done to them? Will you rejoice in the destruction of the wicked in that case?

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In passages like those - the righteous love and the righteous grieving are BOTH evident.

Only the ignorant and or the religious hypocrite sees this grey issue from some sort of an either an all black or nothing, or an all white or nothing, issue.

Grey being a sound balance of both.

Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5 towards your perspective, derf - and until you are fully persuaded in your own mind otherwise - in memory of that grace given each of us when wrath had been all we had each deserved - in memory of Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Tambora]

Ya'll do know that this thread is not about the lake of fire, right?

Well now ya know.