ECT NT verses to churches threaten loss of salvation

[nikolai_42]

Seals have been broken all throughout history.
Believers have been thrown in hell all throughout history.
Yes, you better believe it.
Just believing is plain ridiculous.
It takes way more than just believing to make it into heaven!

This is where you go off the rails, I think. You - along with the "hyper-grace" proponents do the same thing - isolate faith from obedience, making them separate things. In that context, you can make what you will of them (e.g. make faith a work or obedience an added necessity) rather than seeing both as two inextricably linked facets of the same thing.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:10-11

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:17

Works alone - most will agree - constitutes works salvation. Faith being alone is impotent and really means very little.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

Note which is the necessary precedent in Paul's letter to Timothy :

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 2:16-17

Works - to the child of God - are fruits. They are commands, but the difference between a command to an unregenerate unbeliever and the same command to a believer is seen in the response of each one :

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Titus 1:15-16

So when we read John say this :

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
I John 3:9-10

...we have to either believe that believers are sinless in all ways we can understand that. The only one that seems reasonable (and meshes with the rest of his epistle) is that the one who is born of God does not sin habitually and continually without repentance. Otherwise, John's assertion in I John 2:1 that we have an advocate with the Father - and his later statement about a sin that is not unto death (in a brother!) - doesn't make a lot of sense. And what of James' statement about the sick being healed and their sins being forgiven them? It is clear to me that sin (and hopefully temptation more than sin itself) is something the believer will reckon with as long as he is in "the body of this death".

So to say that believers are cast into hell is a dangerous statement.

 

[ZacharyB]

This is where you go off the rails, I think. You - along with the "hyper-grace" proponents do the same thing - isolate faith from obedience, making them separate things.

I'm sorry that I have led you to believe what you do about me!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO, this resolves the conflict amongst all the NT verses
concerning eternal security, i.e. OSAS ...vs… NO OSAS:
True saving belief = enduring faith–trust–obedience
+ good works + no habitual sinning
Those who “follow” Jesus “faithfully” are the BACs who
love Him enough to be obedient to His commandments!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, Paul wrote only to "the faithful" in Ephesus and Colossae,
not to the unfaithful BACs. See 1:1 and 1:2 respectively.

 

[bcbsr]

Contrary to your salvation by works interpretation, none of those verse speak of losing one's salvation. Furthermore for it to be said that a person "has been saved", seeing as salvation is about one's future - salvation from the wrath of God, it logically follows that such a person cannot lose salvation. For salvation to be something which can be lost one could only say that one has the possibility of being saved, but not that they have been saved.

Jesus said upon coming to faith, it's a done deal. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

And "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9

For those in the faith salvation from the future wrath of God has already been accomplished.

Those who don't believe in eternal security but rather opt for a salvation by works soteriology don't believe the gospel and as such are themselves unsaved.

 

[ZacharyB]

Those who don't believe in eternal security but rather opt for a salvation by works soteriology don't believe the gospel and as such are themselves unsaved.

As always, what you write is incredibly exciting!

But ...

As always, you are ignoring and/or rejecting all of the many dire warnings in the NT
about the possibility of losing salvation!

As always, it is necessary for those who think they are saved to
RECONCILE ALL OF THE NT VERSES.

As always, this might just reveal to them that they are indeed NOT saved after all.

Believers who are habitually sinning are NOT on the narrow path to heaven!

Easy-grace, free-grace, hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc.
are all from the very pits of hell.

 

[beloved57]

So as to not overwhelm you, I have cut the whole NT list
of warnings in HALF … so, I am ONLY listing warnings
written to the churches:

● Do not be a slave of sin
Romans 6:16, Romans 6:23, James 1:15, 1 John 5:18

● Do not live according to the flesh (carnally-minded)
Romans 8:6, Romans 8:13, Galatians 6:8

● Do not desire to be rich
1 Timothy 6:9

● Do not become entangled in (and overcome by) sin
2 Peter 2:20-21

● Do not be estranged from Christ
Galatians 5:4

● Do not fall from grace
Galatians 5:4

● Do not draw back from the faith to perdition
Hebrews 10:39

● Do not trust in riches, but be rich in good works
1 Timothy 6:18-19

● Do not be blocked from entering the kingdom of God
1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:3-6

● Do not be disobedient, for it proves unbelief
Hebrews 3:18-19, Hebrews 4:1,11

● Do not be a false teacher, an apostate, etc.
2 Peter 2:12-22, Jude 4,12-13

● Do not have your name blotted out of the Book of Life
Revelation 3:5, Revelation 3:5

● Do not be blocked from entering the New Jerusalem
Revelation 3:12

● Practice righteousness
1 John 3:7-10, 1 John 2:29, Acts 10:35, 1 Corinthians 6:9, Romans 1:18

● Obey Jesus
Romans 6:16, Hebrews 5:9, 1 John 2:3,

● Endure in the faith (conditional “IF” passages)
1 Corinthians 15:2, 2 Corinthians 13:5, Hebrews 2:1-3,
Hebrews 3:14, Colossians 1:21-23, 2 Timothy 2:12

● Repent of your on-going sins
2 Corinthians 7:8-10, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 1:9

● Attain holiness
Romans 6:19, Hebrews 12:14

● Continue in the true doctrine
1 Timothy 4:16

● Make your call and election sure
2 Peter 1:10-11

● Be a victorious overcomer (Revelation 3:21 explains who the overcomers are)
Revelation 2:11

Have you studied all those verses and their context and the overall context of scripture ? That is your responsibility since you brought them up.

 

[ZacharyB]

Have you studied all those verses and their context and the overall context of scripture ? That is your responsibility since you brought them up.

Of course I have!
There are multitudes of dire warnings to BACs in the epistles.
There are multitudes of dire warnings to everyone in the gospels.

Your responsibility is to RECONCILE both sets of NT verses ...
the so-called OSAS verses ...versus... the anti-OSAS verses!

THE RECONCILIATION is ...
True saving belief-faith must include obedience, works, etc.
... all of which must endure until the end of your life!

 

[beloved57]

zach

Of course I have!

Prove it

 

[heir]

So as to not overwhelm you, I have cut the whole NT list
of warnings in HALF … so, I am ONLY listing warnings
written to the churches:

● Do not be a slave of sin
Romans 6:16, Romans 6:23, James 1:15, 1 John 5:18

● Do not live according to the flesh (carnally-minded)
Romans 8:6, Romans 8:13, Galatians 6:8

● Do not desire to be rich
1 Timothy 6:9

● Do not become entangled in (and overcome by) sin
2 Peter 2:20-21

● Do not be estranged from Christ
Galatians 5:4

● Do not fall from grace
Galatians 5:4

● Do not draw back from the faith to perdition
Hebrews 10:39

● Do not trust in riches, but be rich in good works
1 Timothy 6:18-19

● Do not be blocked from entering the kingdom of God
1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:3-6

● Do not be disobedient, for it proves unbelief
Hebrews 3:18-19, Hebrews 4:1,11

● Do not be a false teacher, an apostate, etc.
2 Peter 2:12-22, Jude 4,12-13

● Do not have your name blotted out of the Book of Life
Revelation 3:5, Revelation 3:5

● Do not be blocked from entering the New Jerusalem
Revelation 3:12

● Practice righteousness
1 John 3:7-10, 1 John 2:29, Acts 10:35, 1 Corinthians 6:9, Romans 1:18

● Obey Jesus
Romans 6:16, Hebrews 5:9, 1 John 2:3,

● Endure in the faith (conditional “IF” passages)
1 Corinthians 15:2, 2 Corinthians 13:5, Hebrews 2:1-3,...

Salvation outside of Paul's writings is conditional upon the believer doing something to prove their faith

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

while Paul writes that the gospel of our salvation is how that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) without our works.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
...

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Your problem is you lump the word of God together when it's not all written to us and pull verses out of their context to pervert the truth. The Bible says a lot of different things. If this were my site, your perverted gospel would be removed.

 

[heir]

Easy-grace, free-grace, hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc.
are all from the very pits of hell.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

You calling what God did by the cross "easy" is proof you are blind!

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Gary K]

I've been reading this thread and I find that the OSAS people have a curious idea about God, humanity, and heaven. They believe that once someone says the magic words I believe, that even if they change their mind about all of that later, God is going to drag them into heaven against their own choice. It's like once someone has a relationship with God that from then on He denies them the option of choosing to reject Him. The book of Hebrews denies this very explicitly.

Hebrews 6:4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SIZE=+0]5[/SIZE] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SIZE=+0]6[/SIZE] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

That little two letter word, if, at the beginning of verse 6 says it is possible. If is a conditional statement, and conditional statements mean there are 2 or more options available to choose from. The two options available in the context of this passage of scripture are: 1. Remain in a saving relationship with God. 2. Choose to walk away from the relationship, i.e. divorce themselves from God.

 

[Right Divider]

I've been reading this thread and I find that the OSAS people have a curious idea about God, humanity, and heaven. They believe that once someone says the magic words I believe, that even if they change their mind about all of that later, God is going to drag them into heaven against their own choice. It's like once someone has a relationship with God that from then on He denies them the option of choosing to reject Him. The book of Hebrews denies this very explicitly.

Straw-man... all the way.

Firstly, the book to the HEBREWS is not where we, the body of Christ, go to find doctrines to be followed today.
Secondly, it's not about "saying a magic word (or two)", it's about faith. A real change happens when someone puts the faith in Christ and is saved.

That little two letter word, if, at the beginning of verse 6 says it is possible. If is a conditional statement, and conditional statements mean there are 2 or more options available to choose from. The two options available in the context of this passage of scripture are: 1. Remain in a saving relationship with God. 2. Choose to walk away from the relationship, i.e. divorce themselves from God.

The church which is His body is NOT the same group as the one that "tasted of the heavenly gift".... that happened to those of Christ's earthly people at Pentecost (that lawfully required feast day for Israel). Peter makes it clear that those events were prophetic and based on the prophets of Israel.

"Being made partakers of the Holy Ghost" is that "taste" that THEY were given at Pentecost in fulfillment of prophecy.

This is the sort of problem that occurs when the Bible is thrown into a blender and divisions are not respected.

 

[Gary K]

Straw-man... all the way.

Firstly, the book to the HEBREWS is not where we, the body of Christ, go to find doctrines to be followed today.
Secondly, it's not about "saying a magic word (or two)", it's about faith. A real change happens when someone puts the faith in Christ and is saved.


The church which is His body is NOT the same group as the one that "tasted of the heavenly gift".... that happened to those of Christ's earthly people at Pentecost (that lawfully required feast day for Israel). Peter makes it clear that those events were prophetic and based on the prophets of Israel.

"Being made partakers of the Holy Ghost" is that "taste" that THEY were given at Pentecost in fulfillment of prophecy.

This is the sort of problem that occurs when the Bible is thrown into a blender and divisions are not respected.

Oh, so you don't even believe the entire NT. Funny, Paul said all scripture is given inspiration and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. I guess your Bible is a whole lot smaller than mine. I'll take Paul's instruction and stick with all of the books of the Bible. Also, Paul, time after time, quoted the OT in his instructions and admonishment to the Christian community of his day. So, Paul obviously didn't agree with you. In fact, Paul, and the rest of the apostles, had only the OT available to use for scripture. Of course, if you don't believe Paul's words and ideas from the OT are applicable to Christians, well, I guess Paul's writings were all in vain for no Christians should have ever listened to him or believed him.

 

[Right Divider]

Oh, so you don't even believe the entire NT.

I believe 100% of the Bible.

Are you completely unaware the the majority of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John cannot even be considered NT?

Heb 9:16-17 KJV For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. (17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.​

Funny, Paul said all scripture is given inspiration and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness.

Do you go to Jerusalem three times a year as the Bible commands?

I guess your Bible is a whole lot smaller than mine.

Such a common FALSE accusation.

I'll take Paul's instruction and stick with all of the books of the Bible.

The usual vacuous claim.

Also, Paul, time after time, quoted the OT in his instructions and admonishment to the Christian community of his day.

Indeed he did and sometimes Paul's context was different too.

So, Paul obviously didn't agree with you.

More false accusations.

In fact, Paul, and the rest of the apostles, had only the OT available to use for scripture.

No doubt... and that is why Paul had to write some NEW scripture.

Of course, if you don't believe Paul's words and ideas from the OT are applicable to Christians, well, I guess Paul's writings were all in vain for no Christians should have ever listened to him or believed him.

:juggle:

If you would like to stop ranting, we can have a conversation.

 

[ZacharyB]

Your problem is you lump the word of God together when it's not all written to us and pull verses out of their context to pervert the truth. The Bible says a lot of different things. If this were my site, your perverted gospel would be removed.

Thanks for your response.
Why don't you choose one of the verses in the OP,
and show us why it does not threaten loss of salvation?
That should be easy, if you are correct.

 

[ZacharyB]

That little two letter word "IF"

Thou art very spiritually wise indeed!
There are more than a handful of "IF" conditional verses in the NT.
And there are millions of deceived so-called "believers" in America today.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO, this resolves the conflict amongst all the NT verses
concerning eternal security, i.e. OSAS ...vs… NO OSAS:
True saving belief = enduring faith–trust-obedience
until death + good works + no habitual sinning
Those who “follow” Jesus “faithfully” are the BACs who
love Him enough to be “obedient” to His commandments!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[heir]

Thanks for your response.
Why don't you choose one of the verses in the OP,
and show us why it does not threaten loss of salvation?
That should be easy, if you are correct.

Rather, I'll believe the overriding theme of eternal security in the form of sound words that I have heard of Paul (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV)in Romans through Philemon knowing Whom I have believed, and that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day. You can't lose something, you didn't (and could not Romans 4:4-5 KJV) work for to begin with that which is by grace through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.


Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

…
Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
…

The gospel of YOUR salvation (and mine) is how that Christ died for our sins, was buried and was raised again the third day for our justification (Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) and the formula to be saved is Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV which is Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV.

It's not about what you do. It's about what God did 2000 years ago in the world's behalf!

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
…


2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

"Why don't you" get saved by trusting the Lord believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. Your flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God no matter how much white paint you slap on it with your confidence in the flesh. Count it but dung and get saved.

 

[heir]

I've been reading this thread and I find that the OSAS people have a curious idea about God, humanity, and heaven. They believe that once someone says the magic words I believe, that even if they change their mind about all of that later, God is going to drag them into heaven against their own choice. It's like once someone has a relationship with God that from then on He denies them the option of choosing to reject Him. The book of Hebrews denies this very explicitly.



That little two letter word, if, at the beginning of verse 6 says it is possible. If is a conditional statement, and conditional statements mean there are 2 or more options available to choose from. The two options available in the context of this passage of scripture are: 1. Remain in a saving relationship with God. 2. Choose to walk away from the relationship, i.e. divorce themselves from God.

Hebrews is written to a people that are only partakers if they hold the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

As their salvation is relying on their faith to get them saved

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

While people living today in the dispensation of the grace of God are partakers by the gospel

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

…

As our salvation relies solely on the Lord's faith 2000 years ago in our place!

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

...
1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

…
Galatians 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Galatians 1:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

To say that anyone need to do something to be saved or stay saved is a denial of the gospel of our salvation. It is in opposition to the truth of the gospel.

 

[meshak]

NT verses to churches threaten loss of salvation

If we don't take heed of Jesus' word of faithful to Him until the end with word and deed, there is no salvation.

 

[ZacharyB]

"Why don't you" get saved by trusting the Lord believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV. Your flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God no matter how much white paint you slap on it with your confidence in the flesh. Count it but dung and get saved.

I'm sorry I cannot help you! ... But, I tried.

 

[ZacharyB]

If we don't take heed of Jesus' word of faithful to Him
until the end with word and deed, there is no salvation.

Yes, sister, but that is just one of the dire warnings!

Many NT verses prove each one of these spiritual truths
Believers stay righteous by practicing righteousness
Believers stay righteous through their obedience
Believers faith must endure until the end of their lives
Believers keep salvation by repenting of their sins
Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
Believers must love, forgive, not judge or condemn
Believers must be victorious overcomers
And a recent addition ...
Believers deceived by "grace only" do they fear the Lord?

One full page of Scripture verses is available
for almost every one of the above topics.

However, does anyone desire to see any of them?
No.
Truly, the church is fast asleep ... and many are on their way to hell.