Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Then all of the Greek experts are wrong and only you are right!
ECT NT verses to churches threaten loss of salvation
- Thread starter ZacharyB
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Then all of the Greek experts are wrong and only you are right!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It became convolted when you mis-represented the teaching of Darby, Scofield and Chafer.
Once again, I challenge you to quote any of those men denying that the believing remnant out of Israel become members of the Body of Christ.
That is what you asserted now either quote them saying that the believing remnant were not made members of the Body of Christ or admit that you mis-represented their teaching.
Show us your heart is in the right place and that you want to treat others honestly, the same way that you want to be treated. "
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"Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
This particular quarrel has become convoluted.
It became convolted when you mis-represented the teaching of Darby, Scofield and Chafer.
Once again, I challenge you to quote any of those men denying that the believing remnant out of Israel become members of the Body of Christ.
That is what you asserted now either quote them saying that the believing remnant were not made members of the Body of Christ or admit that you mis-represented their teaching.
Show us your heart is in the right place and that you want to treat others honestly, the same way that you want to be treated. "
The Two Peoples of God and Two Different Programs doctrine of dispensationalism is fundamental to that theology. And that Two Peoples-Two Programs is stated by the Founders, John Darby and Lewis S. Chafer, and statements with the same meaning are available by other dispensationalist leaders.
The question is what do the Founders of dispensationalism mean by Israel?
The "Right Dividing" of dispensationalism makes a separation between whatever it is they call Israel and what they mean by the Church.
"...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..
J. Dwight Pentecost in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan." page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965.
In order to be consistent, then dispensationalists would have to teach that in Romans 11:12-24, the "wild Olive Tree, which represents Gentile believers, is "rightly divided" apart forever from the "good olive tree," which represents the Israel of dispensationalism. The "good Olive Tree is found in Romans 11: 24.
But here is the problem with separating the "Wild Olive Tree" of Romans 11: 17 and Romans 11: 24 from the "Good Olive Tree" in Romans 11: 24: "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" Romans 11: 17-20
In metaphoric language Paul is saying in Romans 11: 17-20 that believing Gentiles are joined together with believing Jews to make a united group of the elect, the saved of God.
So, in postulating that the Israel of dispensationalism, which is apparently defined as the multitude of the physical bloodline of Israel, is "rightly divided" from the Church, as Gentle believers, dispensationalism contradicts Romans 11: 17-20
But the argument here is apparently about whether the Founders of dispensationalism postulated a theology with two peoples of God, and two programs, in which what they mean by Israel is kept entirely separate from the Gentile Church.
The answer is that the Founders do postulate such a two people-two program theology.
This particular quarrel has become convoluted.
It became convolted when you mis-represented the teaching of Darby, Scofield and Chafer.
Once again, I challenge you to quote any of those men denying that the believing remnant out of Israel become members of the Body of Christ.
That is what you asserted now either quote them saying that the believing remnant were not made members of the Body of Christ or admit that you mis-represented their teaching.
Show us your heart is in the right place and that you want to treat others honestly, the same way that you want to be treated. "
The Two Peoples of God and Two Different Programs doctrine of dispensationalism is fundamental to that theology. And that Two Peoples-Two Programs is stated by the Founders, John Darby and Lewis S. Chafer, and statements with the same meaning are available by other dispensationalist leaders.
The question is what do the Founders of dispensationalism mean by Israel?
The "Right Dividing" of dispensationalism makes a separation between whatever it is they call Israel and what they mean by the Church.
"...never the twain, Israel and church, shall meet." Lewis S. Chafer, Systematic Theology (Dallas, Dallas Seminary Press, 1975), Vol. 4. pp. 315-323..
J. Dwight Pentecost in his
book Things To Come ( 1965) says "The church and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan." page 193, J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come, Zondervan, 1965.
In order to be consistent, then dispensationalists would have to teach that in Romans 11:12-24, the "wild Olive Tree, which represents Gentile believers, is "rightly divided" apart forever from the "good olive tree," which represents the Israel of dispensationalism. The "good Olive Tree is found in Romans 11: 24.
But here is the problem with separating the "Wild Olive Tree" of Romans 11: 17 and Romans 11: 24 from the "Good Olive Tree" in Romans 11: 24: "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" Romans 11: 17-20
In metaphoric language Paul is saying in Romans 11: 17-20 that believing Gentiles are joined together with believing Jews to make a united group of the elect, the saved of God.
So, in postulating that the Israel of dispensationalism, which is apparently defined as the multitude of the physical bloodline of Israel, is "rightly divided" from the Church, as Gentle believers, dispensationalism contradicts Romans 11: 17-20
But the argument here is apparently about whether the Founders of dispensationalism postulated a theology with two peoples of God, and two programs, in which what they mean by Israel is kept entirely separate from the Gentile Church.
The answer is that the Founders do postulate such a two people-two program theology.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You cannot grasp the simple principle that the divine plan toward Israel and the divine plan toward the Body of Christ are mutually exclusive.
When the LORD's plan toward Israel was in force the children of Israel were a speacial people unto the LORD, above all people who are on the face of the earth (Deut.7:6).
But during the LORD's program toward the Body of Christ there are no special people unto the LORD except for the members of the Body of Christ. And there there is neither Jew nor Greek because all nationalities are on the same level (Gal.3:24).
So the two divine programs are mutually exclusive because when the divine plan toward the Body is in effect the children of Israel are no longer a special to the LORD because now they are on the same level as believers of all nationalities.
Now I will ask you to cease from saying things which are not true about the teachings of Darby, Scofield and Chafer.
Right Divider
Body part
And this is the same Jerry that harangues me constantly, telling me that the 12 apostles are in the body of Christ. :dizzy:
Jerry, how can they (the 12) be included in two mutually exclusive divine plans? :juggle:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
When Israel was temporarily set aside then the remnant out of that nation were made members of the Body of Christ. Can you not even understand that the believing remnant out of Israel were baptized into the Body of Christ despite what Paul said in the following passage?:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
Right Divider
Body part
So according to you .... they (the 12 and the rest of the remnant) will be removed from the body of Christ and put back in "the divine plan for Israel" which is "mutually exclusive" from the "divine plan for the body of Christ" when Christ returns to establish His kingdom?
Your story just gets crazier the more you post about it.
P.S. I notice how you wrongly call them "the believing remnant OUT OF Israel" instead "the believing remnant OF Israel", which what they really were.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I never said that. You can't even understand Paul's simple words here that makes it plain that the believing remnant out of Israel were made members of the Body of Christ and that is why you just IGNORE what Paul wrote:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
So you have been able to trick your mind into believing that the remnant remained "of" Israel after that nation was temporarily set aside!
According to you they went down with a sinking ship!
You are so uninformed that you cannot even understand that one of the two groups of which Paul speaks in the following passage is the believing remnant:
"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).
Do you deny that one of the two groups spoken of in this passage was the remnant of which Paul referred to at Romans 11:5? If your answer is "yes" then please identify the two groups.
Right Divider
Body part
Until you can explain yourself better, I cannot move forward.
- You say that there are two mutually exclusive divine plans (DP).
- You say that the 12 were in the one for Israel.
- Then you claim that they were moved into the one for the body of Christ.
- Now we know that the DP for Israel has not been completed at the present time and will have a future resumption.
- So the question is: Will they be moved back into the one for Israel at a later time, since the two DP's are mutually exclusive?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
When the DP toward Israel was in effect the Israelites were a special people unto the LORD. But in the DP toward the Body of Christ the only special people are those in the Body, and there the Israelites are on the same level as believers belonging to other nations.
Yes, just like Paul was. After the nation of Israel was temporarily set aside the Twelve were baptized into the Body of Christ just like Paul was:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
No, they will not be moved back.
Now that I have answered your questions it is time for you to answer mine. Do you deny that one of the two groups spoken of in the following passage was the remnant of which Paul referred to at Romans 11:5? If your answer is "yes" then please identify the two groups.
"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).
It is your turn to answer my questions. If you have any further questions I will answer them but not until after you answer mine.
Right Divider
Body part
So then you must believe that the Lord Jesus Christ lied when He told them that they would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Their calling was for Israel and the twelve tribes. Their kingdom ... etc. etc. etc.
That you think that their calling was changed is nonsense.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You refuse to answer my questions. Why is that since you think you are able to judge others about their beliefs which contradict yours?
What is nonsense is your inability to tell the difference between the calling of "individual" Jews and the calling of the "nation" of Israel.
Now I will answer your point despite the fact that you refused to answer me so everyone can see that you have no answers which you can provide to defend your false teaching.
Those in the Body of Christ will return with the Lord Jesus when he returns to the earth to set up His kingdom because the Apostle Paul says that after the saints are caught up to meet the Lord in theair they will be with Him forever:
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).
Then those in the Body of Christ will judge the world (1 Cor.6:2). So those in the Body of Christ will judge those who will be in the Messianic kingdom who are not members of the Body of Christ. And the Twelve will also judge the twelve tribes who will not be in the Body of Christ.
Now that I have answered your point again it is time for you to answer mine. Do you deny that one of the two groups spoken of in the following passage was the remnant of which Paul referred to at Romans 11:5? If your answer is "yes" then please identify the two groups.
"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).
Let me give you a hint:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
Right Divider
Body part
Judge Jerry judges all.
So you are trying to say that THEIR (the 12) calling was NOT attached intimately to THEIR TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL? Jerry, no matter how hard you try it is just foolishness to think THEIR God given responsibility to sit on TWELVE thrones judging the TWELVE tribes of ISRAEL is somehow divorced from THEIR NATION. :dizzy:
And you can keep trying to FORCE 1 Cor 12:13 into your story, but you simply do not understand where it fits.
"When the DP toward Israel was in effect the Israelites were a special people unto the LORD. But in the DP toward the Body of Christ the only special people are those in the Body, and there the Israelites are on the same level as believers belonging to other nations."
It looks like "DP" is dispensation.
There is nothing in the New Testament on which this statement can be based. The question then, is whether the prophecies on the restoration of Israel in the Old Testament support such an idea - and the question is whether Old Testament prophecies on the restoration of physical Israel can be made to apply in the New Covenant.
Acts 15: 14-18 deals with the interpretation of Old Testament prophecies in the New Covenant on the restoration of physical Israel. James quotes Amos 9: 11-12, apparently from the Septuagint in Acts 15: 16-18. And James says in Acts 15: 1, "And to this agree the words of the prophets," He does not say prophet, that is, only Amos, but prophets, plural. To what do the prophets agree? Acts 15: 14 answers this question. The prophets on the restoration of physical Israel agree that God was to take out a people for himself from the Gentiles.
Amos 9: 11-12 in the Septuagint says "In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and will rebuild the ruins of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: 12 that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord who does all these things."
The Masoretic Hebrew Text for Amos 9: 11-12 says "In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12. That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this."
The Masoretic Hebrew text created between the 7th and 10th centuries A.D. by Rabbinic Judaism does not state clearly that "the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord." as does the Septuagint translated from an earlier Hebrew text.
Jeremiah 18: 1-6 is a prophecy on the restoration of Israel. "The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2. Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."
Jeremiah 18: 1-6 says God was to remake Israel, not just restore Israel to its condition at some point in its historical past. Jeremiah 18: 1-6 does not say how God was to remake Israel. But this prophecy is supported by II Kings 21: 13 and Isaiah 29: 16.
"And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down." II Kings 21: 13
"Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?" Isaiah 29: 16
It looks like "DP" is dispensation.
There is nothing in the New Testament on which this statement can be based. The question then, is whether the prophecies on the restoration of Israel in the Old Testament support such an idea - and the question is whether Old Testament prophecies on the restoration of physical Israel can be made to apply in the New Covenant.
Acts 15: 14-18 deals with the interpretation of Old Testament prophecies in the New Covenant on the restoration of physical Israel. James quotes Amos 9: 11-12, apparently from the Septuagint in Acts 15: 16-18. And James says in Acts 15: 1, "And to this agree the words of the prophets," He does not say prophet, that is, only Amos, but prophets, plural. To what do the prophets agree? Acts 15: 14 answers this question. The prophets on the restoration of physical Israel agree that God was to take out a people for himself from the Gentiles.
Amos 9: 11-12 in the Septuagint says "In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and will rebuild the ruins of it, and will set up the parts thereof that have been broken down, and will build it up as in the ancient days: 12 that the remnant of men, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord who does all these things."
The Masoretic Hebrew Text for Amos 9: 11-12 says "In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12. That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this."
The Masoretic Hebrew text created between the 7th and 10th centuries A.D. by Rabbinic Judaism does not state clearly that "the Gentiles upon whom my name is called, may earnestly seek me, saith the Lord." as does the Septuagint translated from an earlier Hebrew text.
Jeremiah 18: 1-6 is a prophecy on the restoration of Israel. "The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2. Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
5. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
6. O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel."
Jeremiah 18: 1-6 says God was to remake Israel, not just restore Israel to its condition at some point in its historical past. Jeremiah 18: 1-6 does not say how God was to remake Israel. But this prophecy is supported by II Kings 21: 13 and Isaiah 29: 16.
"And I will stretch over Jerusalem the line of Samaria, and the plummet of the house of Ahab: and I will wipe Jerusalem as a man wipeth a dish, wiping it, and turning it upside down." II Kings 21: 13
"Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?" Isaiah 29: 16
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Anyone can see that you continue to run and hide from the verses which destroy your ideas.
Right Divider
Body part
And anyone can see that you misuse scripture repeatedly in an attempt to support your ideas.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In the introduction found in the first epistle to the church at Corinth we read the following:
"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).
Paul's words in this epistle were not just addressed to the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord."
That can only mean that Paul addressed this epistle to every Christian, whether they be Gentile or Jew, who were alive when he wrote this epistle. This is what Paul told them later in the same epistle:
"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
Paul tells all the believers on the face of the earth at that time that we are "all" baptized into the Body of Christ. That can only mean that Paul was teaching that the Twelve were members of the Body of Christ.
Cornelius Stam, the founder of the Berean Bible Society, also believed that the Twelve could not be excluded from the Body of Christ:
"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles,"I Corinthians 12:13
I Corinthians 12: 13 is one of several New Testament scriptures which supports the doctrine that the Gospel of Christ, and his death and resurrection, sufficient for our salvation, is not just a temporary "dispensation," as claimed by dispensationalists, but is the restoration of Israel, as the fulfillment of several Old Testament prophecies.
"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Ephesians 2; 12-18
"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6. Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8. How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory" II Corinthians 3: 5-9
"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second........ In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8: 7, 13
How can the New Covenant be temporary when the New Testament says it was done away with? "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9
"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24.For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?" Romans 11: 17-24
What is the "good olive tree" in Romans 11: 24? How could it be Old Covenant Israel, when the remnant of Old Covenant Israel has been transformed by the Gospel of Christ to become the first fruits of the New Covenant?
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." Galatians 6: 15-16
The "New creature" or "New Creation" makes it impossible for Paul to be talking only about Old Covenant physical Israel, being the Israel of God here.
Look at Old testament prophecy on Christ:
Amos 9: 11-12 in the Septuagint, Jeremiah 18: 1-6, and more specific prophecies include Zechariah 12: 10, and Psalm 22: 16-17. Peter in Acts 2: 25-38 quotes Psalm 16: 8-11, "I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10.For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."
The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ made it possible for faith in him and in his Gospel to bring redemption to all who believe. This is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. The role of Israel was to bring the knowledge of this redemption to the people of the world. It turned out that the remnant of Israel (Romans 11: 1-5) were the ones who began the process of bringing news of this great redemption to the people of the world.
Its important to stress the quotes from John Darby, Lewis S. Sperry and other dispensationalists on Israel, by which they mean the multitude and not the remnant, being one of two different and separate peoples of God, along with the Church. By All Israel Shall be Saved In Romans 11: 26 dispensationalists mean the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, all the Bloodline.
I Corinthians 12: 13 is one of several New Testament scriptures which supports the doctrine that the Gospel of Christ, and his death and resurrection, sufficient for our salvation, is not just a temporary "dispensation," as claimed by dispensationalists, but is the restoration of Israel, as the fulfillment of several Old Testament prophecies.
"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Ephesians 2; 12-18
"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6. Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8. How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9. For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory" II Corinthians 3: 5-9
"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second........ In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8: 7, 13
How can the New Covenant be temporary when the New Testament says it was done away with? "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9
"And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24.For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?" Romans 11: 17-24
What is the "good olive tree" in Romans 11: 24? How could it be Old Covenant Israel, when the remnant of Old Covenant Israel has been transformed by the Gospel of Christ to become the first fruits of the New Covenant?
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." Galatians 6: 15-16
The "New creature" or "New Creation" makes it impossible for Paul to be talking only about Old Covenant physical Israel, being the Israel of God here.
Look at Old testament prophecy on Christ:
Amos 9: 11-12 in the Septuagint, Jeremiah 18: 1-6, and more specific prophecies include Zechariah 12: 10, and Psalm 22: 16-17. Peter in Acts 2: 25-38 quotes Psalm 16: 8-11, "I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10.For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."
The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ made it possible for faith in him and in his Gospel to bring redemption to all who believe. This is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. The role of Israel was to bring the knowledge of this redemption to the people of the world. It turned out that the remnant of Israel (Romans 11: 1-5) were the ones who began the process of bringing news of this great redemption to the people of the world.
Its important to stress the quotes from John Darby, Lewis S. Sperry and other dispensationalists on Israel, by which they mean the multitude and not the remnant, being one of two different and separate peoples of God, along with the Church. By All Israel Shall be Saved In Romans 11: 26 dispensationalists mean the multitude of Old Covenant Israel, all the Bloodline.
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Right Divider
Body part
Both you and Stam are wrong in this regard.
The body of Christ was/is a NEW creation. Not every believer that ever lived is retroactively placed into the body of Christ.
God does NOT change a persons calling. That is the truth that you cannot accept.
Romans 11, 1 Cor 7, etc. etc. etc.