That's a lot of reading ability. You're reading your meaning into everything you quoted. When you do so you're also directly contradicting a mass of scripture and a lot of Paul's writings as well. Why all the effort to make Paul argue with himself? He doesn't. The only way to make Paul argue with himself is to read a position into his statements rather than using the entirety of his writings to understand his position.
ECT NT verses to churches threaten loss of salvation
- Thread starter ZacharyB
- Start date
That's a lot of reading ability. You're reading your meaning into everything you quoted. When you do so you're also directly contradicting a mass of scripture and a lot of Paul's writings as well. Why all the effort to make Paul argue with himself? He doesn't. The only way to make Paul argue with himself is to read a position into his statements rather than using the entirety of his writings to understand his position.
LOL. Come on, Right Divider, who was it that started all the ranting with the straw man accusation? As I remember it was you. What I said was not a straw man argument for I reject your reading of scripture. You read your position into the Bible as the Bible nowhere makes the statements you claim are the Christian positions. The OT looks forward to Christ and the NT looks back at the reality of Him. That's the only difference. In both testaments salvation is only by faith and requires the new birth. The God who says He changes not didn't change to become a respecter of persons. He is as He has always been, impartial, just, and fair. He treats us all alike, no matter when we have lived during the timeline of human history.
Right Divider
Body part
So you do not understand that the majority of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John cannot in any way be considered "new testament"? Ok, stay confused. You seem to like it.
Fisherofmen
Member
Even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19)
"Belief" does not mean what you think it means. To a Christian, faith without works is dead.(James 2:17)
The belief spoken of in John 3:16 is part of a LIVING faith. Yes, those with that kind of belief shall not perish provided they endure to the end(Matt. 24:13). One must be in a state of belief at the point of death. They must have a living faith. That's what John 3:16 is saying.
Last edited:
Fisherofmen
Member
Being saved by grace does not prove OSAS. Without God's grace, men could not be saved. There is no work that can merit that initial grace from God. Men can reject God's grace, however. There are warnings throughout all of Scripture regarding this. Men can also fall away from the faith...
[4]For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,[6] And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery. (Heb 6:4-6)
Note that this is not an Angel or any other creature from without, that causes man to fall away. He falls away by his own free choice. God never takes away a person's free will at any time. Also, women should not be attempting to teach others. This is stated clearly in Scripture, yet so many women disobey it...
[11] Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. [12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence. [13] For Adam was first formed; then Eve. [14] And Adam was not seduced; but the woman being seduced, was in the transgression. (1 Tim 2:11-14)
Well, at least YOU have believed God's revelation of Truth as presented clearly in the NT.
N.A. churches are fast asleep ... and mostly believe in ANTINOMIANISM
(grace-only, hyper-grace, etc.) ... which is from the very pits of hell.
This doctrine teaches that believers, after they have been born-again,
have NO part to play in their salvation (no co-operation, no obedience, etc.).
Yes, the NT is absolutely filled with warnings about "believers" who are NOT saved.
My #1 favorite of all of them is Revelation 21:7-8.
Please note the 3 distinct groups: cowards, unbelievers, habitual sinners.
The cowards and the habitual unrepentant sinners are
believers who are NOT in the unbelieving group.
The cowardly group includes:
-- believers who are afraid to proclaim their belief
-- believers who fall away during Christian persecution
-- believers who submit to taking the mark of the beast
heir
TOL Subscriber
Hebrews is written to Hebrews, you fool. It means what it says, as it says it, to them both past and future. It has NOTHING to do with members of the Body of Christ or the dispensation of the grace of God to us. Our inheritance is guaranteed with that seal of the Holy Spirit of promise according to Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV and there's nothing I can do or not do to screw that up! PTL!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are the fool. It is only those in the Body of Christ who have a heavenly calling and have the following standing before God:
"Even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).
That is exactly the same thing spoken of in the book of Hebrews:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel" (Heb.12:22-24).
Those who received the book of Hebrews enjoyed eternal security just like all the other members of the Body of Christ:
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:14).
Right Divider
Body part
How can anyone think that a book named HEBREWS is written to "neither Jew nor Greek"?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Why would Paul, who was a member of the Body of Christ, refer to himself in the following way since in the Body of Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek?:
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Ro.11:1).
According to your logic Paul couldn't be a member of the Body of Christ!
All you prove is that you know about the Body of Christ because you are ignorant of the fact that those in the Body are said to have a heavenly calling, being seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
"Even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).
That is exactly the same thing spoken of in the book of Hebrews:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel" (Heb.12:22-24).
Right Divider
Body part
CONTEXT Jerry.... CONTEXT....
It's simply amazing that you do not understand CONTEXT.
The POINT of the beginning of Romans 11 is that God that has NOT cast away His people.
Many people today claim that God HAS cast away His people. Are you one of those?
Conflating the roles of Israel and the body of Christ will get you nowhere.
The heavenly Jerusalem comes down to the earth.
Are you someone that thinks that God will NOT restore Israel?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
At the time that the epistle to the Romans was written Israel had been temporarily set aside, not cast away:
"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).
Are you actually arguing that the Body of Christ had not even had its beginning at the time Paul wrote the epistle to the Romans?
God will restore Israel but the following words in bold written by the author of Hebrews is in the "second perfect" tense, meaning that was it has already happened for those believers:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel" (Heb.12:22-24).
Right Divider
Body part
No Jerry.... you know very well that I believe that Paul was the first member of the body of Christ per 1 Tim 1:16
Paul was NOT speaking about himself as a member of the body of Christ in Romans 11, but as a member of the nation of Israel.
Why is this hard for you to understand? (I already know).
The HEBREWS are just what it says. That book is NOT to or about the body of Christ.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is not what is said at 1 Timothy 1:16.
Nice job of just ignoring the fact that when the book of Romans was written Israel had been temporarily set aside.
Nice job of just ignoring the heavenly calling of those who received the book of Hebrews. The author of the book of Hebrews made ot plain that the Jewish believers had access to God in the "holy place" in heaven:
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh" (Heb.10:19-20).
Cornelius Stam, who founded the Berean Bible Society, wrote the following about this access to the holy place in heaven:
"The Holiest place of the tabernacle, still closed to Jewish believers at that time, except representatively through the High Priest once each year, reminds us of our free entrance into 'the holiest of all' in heaven itself. By grace we enter the presence of God, '. . . by the blood of Jesus . . . a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh' (Heb. 10:19,20). Think of it! The old dead way replaced by 'a new and living way,' specially consecrated to our use through the blood of Christ! This is the great Pauline doctrine of our access to God (Rom. 5:2)" (Stam, The Berean Searchlight, Volume L, Number 2).
Paul Sadler, the second President of the Berean Bible Society, understood that those instructions apply to members of the Body of Christ. He wrote:
"The work has been accomplished on our behalf; now it is given unto us to 'believe,' at which time we are 'accepted by God' in the Beloved One, having full access into the heavenlies| (Eph. 1:6; Phil. 1:29; Heb.10:19,20)" (Sadler, Exploring the Unsearchable Riches of Christ [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co.1993; Third Printing], 177).
"But now, through the blood of Christ, God dwells in our midst, thus, we can 'come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need' (Heb. 4:16). It is a solemn thought indeed that every believer in Christ dwells in the very presence of God" (Sadler, Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1999], 66).
Sadler also acknowledges that under the priesthood of the law the Jews did not have access to God:
"In time past, the priesthood implied that the people did not have access to God...The priests always ministered on 'behalf' of those who did not have access. But consider these words of the Apostle Paul: 'But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ...For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father' (Eph. 2:13,18). On the basis of the Cross both Jews and Gentiles now have access to the Father" (Sadler, "The Life and Letters of the Apostle Peter--Part VII," The Berean Searchlight, September, 2000, 8).
The Jewish Christians who received the book of Hebrews had access to God while they were on the earth because just like all of the members of the Body of Christ they were partakers of the heavenly calling:
"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (Heb.3:1).
Right Divider
Body part
Right Divider
Body part
So Paul cannot even mention facts about his nation because they were set aside at the time? :kookoo:
You use so much fallacious reasoning. It's no wonder you're so confused.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are the one who said that the book of Hebrews cannot be for the Body of Christ because in the Body there is neither Jew nor Greek. And I said that since Paul called himself an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin then according to your logic he cannot be a member of the Body of Christ.
You can't even keep up with a simple argument!
Besides that, you said nothing about the fact that those who received the book of Hebrews had a heavenly calling and all of the verses which I quoted proves, just like the rest of those in the Body, that they are risen with Christ and sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
That cannot be said about the nation of Israel, because Israel's calling is earthly and in the future she will dwell in the land which the LORD gave Jacob.
Right Divider
Body part
Actually, I did not say it was that was BECAUSE there is neither Jew nor Greek in the body of Christ. But merely by its NAME you can tell that the context is the HEBREWS and not the body of Christ.
Your Bible blender theory of the body of Christ is ridiculous and leads you to some ridiculous conclusions.
The CONTEXT of Romans 11 is Israel and the fact God has NOT cast them away. Again, why so hard for you?
K:Israel's calling is the kingdom of heaven on the earth. THAT is their "heavenly calling".
Your Bible blending/mashing causes you great confusion.
Last edited:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
My views on the Hebrew epistles match those of the giants of Mid Acts Dispensationalism, Sir Robert Anderson, J.C. O'Hair and Cornelius Stam. Your views match those taught by the Acts 28 crowd.
Why do you continue to ignore what Paul said in Romans 11 about Israel here?:
"For if their having been cast aside has carried with it the reconciliation of the world, what will their being accepted again be but Life out of death?" (Ro.11:15).
You are the one confused and that is why you just refuse to address the fact that those who received the book of Hebrews were told the following:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel" (Heb.12:22-24).
They are told that they have already come the new Jerusalem, the city of the living God who is in the eternal state and not on the earth. And only those in the Body of Christ are risen with Christ and now sit in heavenly places:
"Even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph.2:5-6).
You can't even tell the difference between theearth and the third heaven where the LORD God dwells!