Nontrinitarianism
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RevTestament
New member
You are trying to mix LDS Christians into Unitarianism other. We do not believe Christ was created. We believe He already existed with a body before coming to earth. However, I did say His earthly body was a creation.
Hebrews 10:5
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
You apparently deny God created a body for Christ in order to come into the world, and hence it is you who has "severe problems with scripture."
Lon
Well-known member
Which was born prior to this. :sigh: I forgot you belonged to the LDS with its bizarre pre-Urantia Books of your own. Anybody that believes that tripe is mind-duped. I feel sorry for you, but its stupid brain-dead make-believe stuff from a guy not dealing with a full deck who was into fantasy. I feel bad because you are a fool for following.
Nope
But I forgot you were Mormon. Your guys are horrible theologians in scramble mode because bizarre Mormon claims demand it. I distanced from Catholics for being wrong. I'd never admit to being Mormon if that was my family background. It is a shameful made-up load of garbage and I'd never admit to being associated with it (I wouldn't lie, just wouldn't talk about it and would eternally distance from its stupidity). I feel sorry for you. I don't know how I'd deal with the shame. You might as well be related to a huckster faith healer using microphones to cheat good people out of their money for personal gain. Being a Mormon is the same boat.
I'll pray for you. You are in one of the worst mind-sucking cults.
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RevTestament
New member
I said nothing about that. But it was Christ who appeared to Abram, and He also appeared to Moses and the 70 elders while they ate a drank... it seems He had some sort of body...but yeah, we really don't know much about it.
You are ignoring the issue of where Christ's earthly body came from. If it wasn't created, where did it come from? Did God plop a fully formed baby into Mary? etc.
Or are you going to try to deflect the issue again?
God doesn't have an IMAGE in a physical sense, and as it is used in Gen 1, it does NOT confer a bipedal image, but a triune image. God is 3 in 1 and we as humans are 3 in 1. We live in a three dimensional universe, NOT a one-dimensional universe. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit in ONE.
Your assertion is false and heretical.
It was God as 3 men that appeared to Abraham and it was also God as Melchizedek that appeared to Abraham. It was God as a man that appeared to Jacob and wrestled with Him. Manifestations are NOT human beings born to woman as Jesus was. The Holy Spirit caused Mary to conceive by His Holy seed.
Lon
Well-known member
Your whole paradigm for the answer would come from the wrong idea that the universe is eternal and God the Father is its product (making the universe His god and it, really, the god of Mormonism - you guys don't think nor are encouraged logically).
Mormons do not think clearly or rightly about anything because Smith was a huckster and duped a bunch of willing sheep. You either have to be not very bright or of some intelligence born into it. I feel very sorry for those born into this horrible ridiculous cult.
Let's move onto Jesus: He did have a body and incarnation means it was prepared for Him but Mormons believe He was spiritually incarnated prior to that. Mormonism tramples erroneously all over the word of God and Hebrews among them: Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. I am being harsh with Mormonism but trying not to be with you. Duped is duped. It is a terrible cult and I feel sorry for anyone caught in its charlatan clutches.
Lon
Well-known member
Genesis 1 says "God" created the heavens and the earth.
Your revisions says that isn't true. Do you realize that your 'guesses' are blatant lies against scripture to the rest of us? Do you even understand the blatant offense? It is no small thing. '
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Now I know your wheels start spinning at this point but those wheels deny the words, very words of this verse. It is very plain and clear: God created the heavens and the earth. He didn't direct. He didn't commission. He 'formed' the dust of man from the earth.
Your unique interpretation does great damage to the meaning, intent, and Christianity at large's understanding of
this text. We are GREATLY offended by the harmful conjecture.
Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
RevTestament
New member
You really are clueless, and break the scriptures. Genesis plainly states that Melchizedek was a Kohen/Priest of the Most High God. He was not God. You rewrite scripture to fit your man-made ideas. You're quite dangerous to truth.
Lon
Well-known member
:nono:
This is a very orthodox teaching about Theophany's. I've included the Catholic link simply to show how orthodox this view is as well as reveal how far removed Mormonism is from the rest of biblically orthodox Christianity. Mormonism isolates you away from what the rest of us believe about God and scripture. You have been duped.
I am not a Catholic but my truths are couched in Orthodox seats and I embrace what is Orthodox as do most Protestant churches. Mormonism does not. It is far far away from orthodox Christianity.
RevTestament
New member
Not at all. You have been duped with Catholic theology. It was an invented "theophany" because theologians didn't like what Hebrews said about Melchizedek - that He became without beginning or ending of days when He was made a priest of the Most High.
Hebrews 7: 1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Yeah, I'll stick with scripture over medieval theology. I've seen where that got man - quite lost. There is nothing in that passage which remotely suggests Melchizedek was God. He was a man and a servant of God. Now, I realize that oftentimes God used names of some of His servants to show what would happen in the future, and to represent future personages, but that is different. Hebrews is showing us that Melchizedek was a man made like unto the Son of God. That is the very thing the theologians want to deny, and I believe why the theophany baloney was invented about Melchizedek. The fact that Genesis wasn't a theophany is proven by Hebrews.
Lon
Well-known member
Again, Mormonism is FAR removed from understanding orthodox Christianity and makes a lot of this stuff up. The Catholics are themselves, following Jewish commentary regarding these Theophanies. As I said, I feel horribly sorry for you and your dismal state as a Mormon.
Then be educated
(seriously, read and stop being a Mormon dupe for their play toy).Impossible given your stand on WHO God is.
Very likely given who the voice is you hear.
Well as you don't KNOW scriptures, your position here is not surprising.
Try reading Heb 7, and pay attention to v3.
RevTestament
New member
Oh, I quite understand orthodoxy - was raised Presbyterian and Baptist. Went to a Jesuit school too. What I'm relating here is not "made up." The alleged theophany is made up:
the·oph·a·ny
THēˈäfənē/
noun
noun: theophany; plural noun: theophanies
a visible manifestation to humankind of God or a god.
Now when Hebrews brings up Melchizedek, there is no presentation that he was God. No, once again, he is presented as a priest of the Most High. What is there to not understand about that? He was not the Most High, but His priest, and a man.
A real theophany is like the Holy Ghost descending in the form of a dove, or the three who appear to Abraham.
It is you who is either being deceitful, or you just don't know your stuff. Here is what a Jew just posted about Melchizedek:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4398373&postcount=8
Jews do not hold out the Genesis story of Melchizedek as being a theophany - quite to the contrary. They believe Melchizedek was Shem...
"Jews have known that the “righteous King” of B’réshiyt 14:18 was in fact Shem, son of Noah, for millennia; and any observant, educated Jew should know it today."
Yeah, sorry there bro - kinda blows you away. Again, you believe medieval theology baloney from a church you reject. :colt45:
Orthodoxy takes just about every point of the Godhead, screws it up, and throws away the key. It really is sad. I know the Most High God whom I serve.Then be educated
..................................................Bible vs Roman Creeds/Trinitarianism
Invites men to come freely (godly love)...................................Use of fear, compulsion, & persecution (adversary)
Bible - Covenant with God, Isaiah 61:6-8.........................................Roman Creeds - words from where?
"man shall live by every word of God" Luke 4:4.................promulgated under the maximum priest of Roman gods
Rome is the Beast of Daniel 7:19-20..........................(pontifex = builder of the way/roads) Pontifex Maximus office
and Rev 13, Rev 17 Woman on beast ...............................of Constantine and later Bishop of Rome (Roman Church)
Mystery, Babylon 1 Peter 5:13, Rev 17:5..........................Babylon was beast of Dan 7:4 and head of image Dan 2
Apostles and Christians had no .................................................................. none 33 A.D - 325 A.D.
creeds for 3 centuries and were persecuted .............................approx 325 Nicea 1st Creed -required by Roman law
............................................................................................to be read in churches - persecution stops
Elohim - a plural Hebrew noun ex. Family...................Deity(Latin) - a singular "god" idea/word from Rome & Greece
Gen 1:26 "And Eloheim said let US.......................................Rome is beast of Dan 7:19-20, Dan 2 kingdom of iron
make man in OUR image." (includes Father & Son)...............Greece is beast of Dan 7:6, Dan 2 kingdom of brass
God created the world through Jesus Christ Eph 3:9................Persia is beast of Dan 7:5, Dan 2 kingdom of silver
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Babylon is beast of Dan 7:4, Dan 2 head of gold
Godhead Acts 17:29 KJV, Col 2:9, Ps 82:1.................Trinity - coined by Tertullian who also said the Son had a
........................................................................................beginning - sorry Trins
https://www.lds.org/topics/godhead?lang=eng.......................... ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian
"The Father and I are one"
Father - Most High(El Elyon) - Psalms 47:2-3, Psalms 110:1, Acts 7:55.............Father "co-equal, one substance,
............................................................. .........................................................one being" the Almighty
Son - Holy One of Israel - Isaiah 54:5 KJV, Acts 13:35....................Son "co-equal, co-substantial, one being"
Son of the Most High, servant - Isaiah 42:1, 6, 8, .................................... Son of the Almighty God
"Enough Breast" (El Shaddai) - Rev 1:8, 4:8, Jn 8:58, Gen 17:1 ...................per Apostles Creed and others
"The Father is greater than I."
"Who hath seen me, hath seen the Father."
"Whatsoever the Father doeth the Son doeth likewise." "I am the way." Jn 14:6
Inheritor - now on right hand, but will sit in Father's stead & be called Father .......... immutable - Son forever
................................................................................................Platonic/Aristotlian(Greece again) concept
Isaiah 9:6, "inheritor of my mountains" Isaiah 65:9; Heb 1:4.......................but already "co-equal"; denies
...........................................................................................................inheritance; enemy to Christ
Under the Hebraic law, the firstborn or begotten inherited all his father had.
only begotten .................................................. ........................325 creed - "begotten before all worlds"
Heb 7:28 Oath of the Father - .........................................................under Bishop of Rome as Pontifex maximus
"Thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee." ............................... became "eternally begotten"
John 15:16 Pray/ask the Father in the name of Jesus Christ .......................... Pray to Son or Mary
Holy Ghost ...................................................................................... Holy Ghost - not declared
Matt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, ...... co-substantial in Nicean Creed - oops!
it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, .............Constantinople 381 A.D.-
................................................................................................declared as co-equal & one substance
it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come............... with the Son
.....................................................................................................(blasphemy against HG or Christ?)
Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Descended upon Jesus in form of dove in River Jordan ...............sprinkle sinless infants with "holy water" salted
...............................................................................................like in pagan roman holy water
Prophets/Apostles/Bishops, etc.............................vicarius filii dei (666) in Donation of Constantine until ruled
........................................................................................a fake (fallible?)
. . . .. .. .. . . . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. .. . . . .. . . . . . .. .. . . .tiaras destroyed by Napoleon
Jesus: "call no man Father" Matt 23:9............................"pope" from popa or literally daddy, father; "holy father"
John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: .............. dark ages, inquisitions, crusades against "heretics"
for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. ...........who made claim to Jesus' name
"You shall know them by their fruits" Matt 7:15-16
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth,
and the truth shall make you free..............................................Truth suppression, fabrications John 8:44
Gen 3:3,22.......................................................................................Gen 3:1,4,5
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution[restoration] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Josh 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, ... but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints." Ephesians 1:18.
AMEN
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
The Matt 28:20 Church
Copyright RevelationTestament.net - license granted for one copy, no reproduction
Which was born prior to this. :sigh: I forgot you belonged to the LDS with its bizarre pre-Urantia Books of your own. Anybody that believes that tripe is mind-duped. I feel sorry for you, but its stupid brain-dead make-believe stuff from a guy not dealing with a full deck who was into fantasy. I feel bad because you are a fool for following.
Nope
But I forgot you were Mormon. Your guys are horrible theologians in scramble mode because bizarre Mormon claims demand it. I distanced from Catholics for being wrong. I'd never admit to being Mormon if that was my family background. It is a shameful made-up load of garbage and I'd never admit to being associated with it (I wouldn't lie, just wouldn't talk about it and would eternally distance from its stupidity). I feel sorry for you. I don't know how I'd deal with the shame. You might as well be related to a huckster faith healer using microphones to cheat good people out of their money for personal gain. Being a Mormon is the same boat.
I'll pray for you. You are in one of the worst mind-sucking cults.
If you truly felt sorry for him, then you would not speak as you do.
You are offended because of your religion, not because of the truth.
Jesus Christ is the beginning of the creation of God.
Rev_3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
LA
oatmeal
Well-known member
So, again, you refuse to tell how Peter and Paul are wrong?
So Peter is wrong, Paul is wrong, but you and your theories are right?
God is still rich in mercy.
Lon
Well-known member
No, and I gave you the link. They think this from the Psalm. That Psalm, regarding Melchizedek qualifies. I'm pretty sure you ignored the rest of the link because several of the Jewish scholars think that too!
I'm defending Stan's right to think so based on commentary precedent AND the scripture Psalm that suggests it.
I'm not sure Melchizedek has to be a theophany for Hebrews to make sense, but my point in entering the conversation was to tell you, you are wrong. It is an acceptable "orthodox" interpretation. The Mormon assumption is NOT.
You are clueless, so it is little wonder you are a mindless Mormon.
Jewish scholars do NOT argue with one another over this. Do the ideas oppose? Yes, but as it falls within Christian orthodoxy to entertain the divergence, it falls similarly within Jewish circles to allow the divergence on this nonessential matter.
It 'becomes' essential for Mormonism but none of the rest of us are concerned with that BECAUSE we view you as heretical against orthodoxy and your reason for insisting is wholly to support Mormon heresy.
Your Mormonism will always have you missing the pertinent and waxing heretical and irrelevant to the rest of us. It is acceptable to Christianity that Melchizedek could have been a manifestation of God, and in keeping with the Psalm that suggests as much. Only a heretical Mormon, trying to keep his heresy, makes any bones about the discussion.