Nontrinitarianism

[Lon]

I willfully ignore YOU, because YOU are a troll. Insincerity begets dismissiveness.

Occasionally, when in pertinent threads, I take them off ignore to be fair but I never see their comments otherwise and am not interested.

So, again, you refuse to tell how Peter and Paul are wrong?

So Peter is wrong, Paul is wrong, but you and your theories are right?

God is still rich in mercy.

I've found with you, it doesn't matter because you worry a nut to death and miss all the other open ones laying around you.

One day, you have to understand we see you as 3 out of a thousand and so as wacko and in your own little worlds. We see you as substandard for conversation. Prejudice? Yes, but you chose and still choose to be that person. Going against a thousand in a crowd carries 'weirdo' and 'backwoods' with it.

You can puff your pigeon chest all you like as do the other two of the thousand on TOL but we still see "oddball, weird, and wrong on many levels." You, Pierac, The Urantia UFO guys, are all seen as the class oddballs AND YOU CHOSE/CHOOSE to be that guy!

I've tried to 'prove' to you, you are wrong, but when you ignore sound reasoning, your weirdo status is doubly-assured. Scriptures, to a thousand of us, are clear on the matter. Being one of three in a thousand means you are substandard, strange, and oddball.

 

[oatmeal]

None of the NT authors are wrong...YOU are....ALWAYS.

When you start believing them, then you will be onto something worthwhile.

Evidently, you do not believe the testimonies of the apostles Peter and Paul

Do you need to learn how to believe?

 

[oatmeal]

Occasionally, when in pertinent threads, I take them off ignore to be fair but I never see their comments otherwise and am not interested.


I've found with you, it doesn't matter because you worry a nut to death and miss all the other open ones laying around you.

One day, you have to understand we see you as 3 out of a thousand and so as wacko and in your own little worlds. We see you as substandard for conversation. Prejudice? Yes, but you chose and still choose to be that person. Going against a thousand in a crowd carries 'weirdo' and 'backwoods' with it.

You can puff your pigeon chest all you like as do the other two of the thousand on TOL but we still see "oddball, weird, and wrong on many levels." You, Pierac, The Urantia UFO guys, are all seen as the class oddballs AND YOU CHOSE/CHOOSE to be that guy!

I've tried to 'prove' to you, you are wrong, but when you ignore sound reasoning, your weirdo status is doubly-assured. Scriptures, to a thousand of us, are clear on the matter. Being one of three in a thousand means you are substandard, strange, and oddball.

Evidently, you do not believe the testimonies of the apostles Peter (Acts 2:22) and Paul (I Timothy 2:5)

Do you need for me to teach you how to believe?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have felt God's spirit...he has given me many blessings, one of which is wisdom of his words. Not all his words but enough of them. Pray for understanding and he might bless you also.

If you have an understanding of what is in the Bible then you will know that the Lord Jesus is God. The following verse is speaking of only "one" throne:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:3).​

Here is what John saw and heard while he was at that throne, the throne of God and of the Lamb:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).​

Here we read the one on the throne saying, "I will be his God." This is God speaking and since there can only be ONE who is the beginning and the end and the Alpha and the Omega, then it cannot be denied that the one speaking is Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

These are the words of the Lord Jesus because He is the one who says, "I come quickly" (Rev.22:20).

There is only "One" on the Throne of God and the Lamb, and that proves that the Lord Jesus is God--the Alpha and Omega and the Beginning and the End.

 

[Lon]

Evidently, you do not believe the testimonies of the apostles Peter (Acts 2:22) and Paul (I Timothy 2:5)

Do you need for me to teach you how to believe?

No. I'm telling you that was the exception to the rule. You are 'weird' if you think 'you' are the exception to the rule. "You" are going against Christianity, you know, HIS church/body? That is much different than Pharisees. There were no Pharisees in the Old Testament. You and other Arian/Unitarians 'allowed' yourselves to easily think 'special' and 'highly' about yourselves but that was hasty, and therefore wrong.

Think of it this way: General math is basic and understandable. God made things according to basic mathematics so we can understand His universe based on it. BUT He also made the universe according to algebraic terms which are also absolutely true but often incredibly complicated. If all you know concerning God is basic, I think that is fine but if you deny, by example here, Algebra exists, you are doing some dangerous things.

As a Unitarian, you are doing dangerous things. You are denying scriptures that make it clear Jesus is God and there is only one. You are expecting and making no exceptions for what I believe is an Algebraic type of term: Triune. I believe it is a must from scripture. Ignoring "x, y, and or n" actually makes the problem and answer wrong in Algebra and it is a serious matter. Insisting on it, endangers other's relationship with God, and that certainly is cause for heretical concern.

 

[keypurr]

Genesis 1 says "God" created the heavens and the earth.

Your revisions says that isn't true. Do you realize that your 'guesses' are blatant lies against scripture to the rest of us? Do you even understand the blatant offense? It is no small thing. '

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Now I know your wheels start spinning at this point but those wheels deny the words, very words of this verse. It is very plain and clear: God created the heavens and the earth. He didn't direct. He didn't commission. He 'formed' the dust of man from the earth.

Your unique interpretation does great damage to the meaning, intent, and Christianity at large's understanding of
this text. We are GREATLY offended by the harmful conjecture.


Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Did not God create everything THROUGH his son?

What's your problem Lon?

Why did you not quote verse 15 in Colossians?

How about Heb 1:1-3?

God did indeed create his image and gave it power.

Your jumping to conclusions again.

 

[keypurr]

If you have an understanding of what is in the Bible then you will know that the Lord Jesus is God. The following verse is speaking of only "one" throne:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:3).​

Here is what John saw and heard while he was at that throne, the throne of God and of the Lamb:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).​

Here we read the one on the throne saying, "I will be his God." This is God speaking and since there can only be ONE who is the beginning and the end and the Alpha and the Omega, then it cannot be denied that the one speaking is Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

These are the words of the Lord Jesus because He is the one who says, "I come quickly" (Rev.22:20).

There is only "One" on the Throne of God and the Lamb, and that proves that the Lord Jesus is God--the Alpha and Omega and the Beginning and the End.

You have a right to think what you want Jerry, but I do not agree with your assessment of who Jesus Christ is.

 

[Lon]

Did not God create everything THROUGH his son?

Nope. There is NO scripture that says so. You made that part up, to embrace Unitarian thought.

What's your problem Lon?

What is more important? Scripture or Unitarian theology?
"My problem" is that I see a disparity.

Why did you not quote verse 15 in Colossians?

Context. It doesn't add a thing to it here. I have no problem with you quoting it but for me, it doesn't change anything, only accentuates the point.

How about Heb 1:1-3?

This IS the way the Unitarian mind works, but I'm saying it is wrong. It is simply going 'where your mind takes you, not interpreting contextually, what scripture says. I DO have a problem with jumping to Hebrews when we are talking about Colossians 1 We must necessarily allow God to take us only where He leads because you and I strongly disagree. That means only immediate contexts work. We are talking about Colossians. I am restricting your mind to just that text.

God did indeed create his image and gave it power.

This is foreign to scripture. It is Unitarian sentiment and nothing more.

You[']r[e] jumping to conclusions again.

I didn't jump to Hebrews, that was you. I didn't say God 'created an image. Genesis 1 to Colossians 1 says no such thing. In fact, you'll never find a scripture that says anything but that creation was made first-person by God. There is no 'went through channels' scripture.

The 'reason' I posted Genesis 1 and Colossians 1 was to show that the difference is God for Christ with equality and no other explanation. It means that Colossians is purposefully equivocating AND that it expects you to know that because it doesn't explain it. In Colossians: God=Christ.

 

[StanJ]

You have a right to think what you want Jerry, but I do not agree with your assessment of who Jesus Christ is.

You also don't agree with God's written word keypurr. I'm sure Jerry is more concerned about that than your fallacious opinion.

 

[StanJ]

Did not God create everything THROUGH his son?
God did indeed create his image and gave it power.

NO.

What the Bible DOES say is;

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You have a right to think what you want Jerry, but I do not agree with your assessment of who Jesus Christ is.

Of course you do not agree with what I said because of your preconceived ideas. But if anything which I said is in error then tell me what exactly what I said that is wrong.

Your opinion means nothing unless you can actually address the verses which I quoted and prove that what I said is in error.

 

[keypurr]

Nope. There is NO scripture that says so. You made that part up, to embrace Unitarian thought.

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Heb 1:10 He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

What is more important? Scripture or Unitarian theology?
"My problem" is that I see a disparity.

Your only seeing what you have been trained to see Lon.

This IS the way the Unitarian mind works, but I'm saying it is wrong. It is simply going 'where your mind takes you, not interpreting contextually, what scripture says. I DO have a problem with jumping to Hebrews when we are talking about Colossians 1 We must necessarily allow God to take us only where He leads because you and I strongly disagree. That means only immediate contexts work. We are talking about Colossians. I am restricting your mind to just that text.

I have no problem comparing verses with any book or chapter.

This is foreign to scripture. It is Unitarian sentiment and nothing more.

I didn't jump to Hebrews, that was you. I didn't say God 'created an image. Genesis 1 to Colossians 1 says no such thing. In fact, you'll never find a scripture that says anything but that creation was made first-person by God. There is no 'went through channels' scripture.

The 'reason' I posted Genesis 1 and Colossians 1 was to show that the difference is God for Christ with equality and no other explanation. It means that Colossians is purposefully equivocating AND that it expects you to know that because it doesn't explain it. In Colossians: God=Christ.

You do not believe in putting two and two together?

 

[keypurr]

Of course you do not agree with what I said because of your preconceived ideas. But if anything which I said is in error then tell me what exactly what I said that is wrong.

Your opinion means nothing unless you can actually address the verses which I quoted and prove that what I said is in error.

Read the verse you posted Jerry.

Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
If you have an understanding of what is in the Bible then you will know that the Lord Jesus is God. The following verse is speaking of only "one" throne:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him" (Rev.22:3).
Here is what John saw and heard while he was at that throne, the throne of God and of the Lamb:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).

Who do you think is talking?

 

[keypurr]

NO.

What the Bible DOES say is;

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Thank you Stan, you just proved my point and made yourself look like a jerk at the same time.

 

[Lon]

Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Heb 1:10 He also says, "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

This is good but "I" see God as Jesus (John 1:1 "...was with God and was God." I agree Father and Son are separate but disagree that Son and God here means separate. It is a rationalizing of this particular text trying to prove a point. In this case, there is distinction but that doesn't necessitate separate in my mind. I'll study a bit on it. It is a fair question/observation I'll try to address.

Your only seeing what you have been trained to see Lon.

No. I am 'seeing' what I'm looking at in scripture and not going beyond it to speculate/"put two-and-two together."

I have no problem comparing verses with any book or chapter.

I know. 2 Peter 1:20

You do not believe in putting two and two together?

No. 2 Peter 1:20 "If" you or I do this, we are imperializing ourselves.

"Guesses" are nothing but guesses, even if rational. At BEST it is just a guess.

 

[StanJ]

Thank you Stan, you just proved my point and made yourself look like a jerk at the same time.

The fool and jerk is the guy who thinks this scripture supports his POV but can't show it. :loser:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:5-7).

Who do you think is talking?

it is God and the Lamb. In this passage it cannot be denied that the one on the throne of God and of the Lamb is God and the Lamb--"and I will be His God." And since there can only be One who is Alpha and Omega and the beginning and the end it cannot be denied that the Lord Jesus is God. Here are His own words:

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

These are the words of the Lord Jesus because He is the one who says, "I come quickly" (Rev.22:20).

There is only "One" on the Throne of God and the Lamb, and that proves that the Lord Jesus is God--the Alpha and Omega and the Beginning and the End.

You answered none of my points because all you did was to ask a question.

Can't you do better than that?

 

[keypurr]

This is good but "I" see God as Jesus (John 1:1 "...was with God and was God." I agree Father and Son are separate but disagree that Son and God here means separate. It is a rationalizing of this particular text trying to prove a point. In this case, there is distinction but that doesn't necessitate separate in my mind. I'll study a bit on it. It is a fair question/observation I'll try to address.


No. I am 'seeing' what I'm looking at in scripture and not going beyond it to speculate/"put two-and-two together."


I know. 2 Peter 1:20



No. 2 Peter 1:20 "If" you or I do this, we are imperializing ourselves.

"Guesses" are nothing but guesses, even if rational. At BEST it is just a guess.

I believe that the WORD in John 1 is not Jesus but the spirit Christ that was in him. Believing that Heb 1 tells me that Christ was a servant God used to create everything. I see him as a created FORM of God as he was given the fullness of the Father.

Believing the way I do paints a different picture than you see Lon. Christ has God that he obeys. I do not see equality with the Father in any way.

I don't think I am guessing Lon, I honestly have tried to disprove what's in my mind. I only found support for my thoughts.

 

[IMJerusha]

Nope. There is NO scripture that says so. You made that part up, to embrace Unitarian thought.

I beg to differ with you Lon, and am a bit surprised you would make such a statement.

John 1:1-5

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."

This is Scripture's quintessential introduction of Yeshua to the world.

 

[StanJ]

I believe that the WORD in John 1 is not Jesus but the spirit Christ that was in him. Believing that Heb 1 tells me that Christ was a servant God used to create everything. I see him as a created FORM of God as he was given the fullness of the Father.
Believing the way I do paints a different picture than you see Lon. Christ has God that he obeys. I do not see equality with the Father in any way.
I don't think I am guessing Lon, I honestly have tried to disprove what's in my mind. I only found support for my thoughts.

We all know this keypurr, but it's NOT a matter of what you believe, it's a matter of what God says in His written word.
I suggest you get the PROPER colour palette installed in your brain.
LOL...yeh right.