lifeisgood
New member
LOL! I think I have a great sense of humor. Trust me when I say I am not worried about you not answering my gigantic comment.
New experience for a muslim
- Thread starter Mulla Sadra
- Start date
LOL! I think I have a great sense of humor. Trust me when I say I am not worried about you not answering my gigantic comment.
Mulla Sadra
Member
This is the last reply for tonight , errrr ..... today, I then will sleep at , 5:30 AM.
Quote:
Masha'allah !
Like I said, whoever wants to see the differerences can. God obligates no one to see them. Neither do I have the power to do so NOR do I want that power. Freedom is something I value dearly.
He doesn't obligate you, but he obligated me, because truth is a specification of a believer : "And when they hear what has been revealed to the Messenger, you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of what they have recognized of the truth. They say, "Our Lord, we have believed, so register us among the witnesses."
Absolutely nothing.
Well if you ask I would answer.
But giving it another thought, if someone is coming into what is mine I will defend it. So, I guess that’s what they were doing. That I agree with it or not is irrelevant.
So it is Christian's ?
There is no such a thing as a Jewish German or a Christian German, Sociology, notwithstanding. There are Germans who are Jewish; there are Germans who are Christians; there are Germans who are atheists; there are Arabs who are Muslims; there are Arabs who are Christians, there are Muslims who are atheists, etc.
I clearly conflict with you as there's nothing as Sociology.
I believe that God had set aside the land of Israel for His people already at the time of Creation. Can I prove what I believe at this time? No
Then don't make killers victorious on innocent because something you can't prove.
The Jesus (Esa/Isa) of the Qur'an is not the Jesus of the Bible. My Bible does talk about another gospel, another Jesus, another spirit though.
Same Person, another point of view.
Praise be to Jehovah God who said, “Let us (plural) make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth” (Gen. 1:26).
Racial issues are man-made, not God's.
I understand then Israelis aren't People of the Lord ? and equal to everyone else in everything ?
Krsto
Well-known member
I think the majority of Protestantism would agree with me that different churches and different faith-based ministries and organizations reflect different sides of God and he hasn't called any one church or group to be the be all and end all for God's way of doing things. A scripture speaks of God using the church to display the manifold (many faceted, as in a diamond having many facets and you can only see a few at a time) wisdom of God and I think that's a good analogy for the different churches. As I have matured in my faith I have sought to try to discover what bit of God and his will they have got right so I can benefit from them. Yes, even Catholicism and other cults.
I would think if the Sunni think this way they would be a lot more tolerant of others
After spending some time on TOL you probably never would have guessed we could be so tolerant of each other but please keep in mind TOL does not represent your typical group of Christians. A forum like this tends to attract those with extreme views.
Mulla Sadra
Member
I think the majority of Protestantism would agree with me that different churches and different faith-based ministries and organizations reflect different sides of God and he hasn't called any one church or group to be the be all and end all for God's way of doing things. A scripture speaks of God using the church to display the manifold (many faceted, as in a diamond having many facets and you can only see a few at a time) wisdom of God and I think that's a good analogy for the different churches. As I have matured in my faith I have sought to try to discover what bit of God and his will they have got right so I can benefit from them. Yes, even Catholicism and other cults.
I would think if the Sunni think this way they would be a lot more tolerant of others
After spending some time on TOL you probably never would have guessed we could be so tolerant of each other but please keep in mind TOL does not represent your typical group of Christians. A forum like this tends to attract those with extreme views.
No, I was thinking about, the "You can alone go to God using the holy spirit" thing, The Shi'ite think that God is not reachable but by the mediation of Imams (something like saints), that's not just about thinking but also about praying, while their Sunni counterparts say that it is Possible for every human to go directly to Allah in prayers (well Salafist Sunnist mostly).
About the no-cult cult idea, you have, firstly you are talking about people who don't use "direct path" and others who use it, I am not sure that's a scientific definition of "Cult".
if it is, then, we have Sufists, Transendent Theosophy and moderate Muslims (which all together are more than half of muslims), who are no-cult cults (according to that definition).
As Mulla Sadra and most Sufist philosophers think that a human (any human) can reach a degree to Allah, that he (sees Allah (God) before, within, after everything), but they say that the fastest and least damaging way is the one to be Muslim (but not that it means non-muslims can't do this in their opinion, because it is natural endowment)
That gave them the idea of "Wahdat Shahood" and then "Wahdat Wajood", two of the famous pantheist ideas in Islam.
That's from the theology said, from the practicing side, They give all prophets/righteous (a variant) right of being door to God, and mediators in what they call "the Four-Fold Journey", and as Sufist they say that the most sported one in the Journey was Muhammad. So what you have in your faith is "Jesus Christ" We have many like him in ours, any righteous person would be enough. (that's a theology we have, with all due respect to you).
[The practicing side is common between all muslims but Salafis and extremist Sunnis, who say there's God, you go to him, no need for any Mediation]
Other Muslims sects (like Catholics) have a Hadeeth that says "Jews after Moses had dissected to 71 team, one of them shall escape the punishment of Hell, and after Jesus, Christians had dissected to 72 team, one of them shall escape punishment, and from Islam shall be born 73 team, one of them shall escape punishment.
[not accurate translation, but it's the same meaning]
Which make them a (cult cult) as you say, but most of them say, that these teams which escape punishment, escape it entirely, while those who are punished, would punished temporarily and then sent back to Heaven.
The first team (the no-cult cults) say the Hadeeth is not right and have been lied on the prophet.
Everyone got his tolerant side, however he came extreme, ask me about it.
Toleration requires living in peace side by side with one's neighbors.
lifeisgood
New member
Good night.
My God did not obligate me to follow Him. I am sorry that yours obligates you to do so. I am simply asked to believe and not obligated to believe.
1 Jn 5:10 — He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1 Jn 5:11 — And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 Jn 5:12 — He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
I know you would and I would thank you for answering.
The things? No! I am a Christian. However, the things are mine and I will defend them to the death if necessary, e.g., my children.
You told me to go read Sociology; therefore, my mention of it.
And I stand by my comment that there is no such a thing as a Jewish German, etc. There is such a thing as a German that is Jewish, etc.
I do not have to prove anything God does. Besides there is no one good or innocent. We are all evil and guilty before God. But God, in His mercy, sent His Son to save those who are evil and guilty, while we were still His enemies, that whoever believes in Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross, He, God, will change our hearts of stone and give those who come to Him a new heart.
Not the same person from where I am standing.
My understanding of your Jesus is that according to the Quran, Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified was not killed by crucifixion or by any other means, instead, "God raised him unto Himself" because someone else died in Jesus’ place.
- That is not what my Bible says.
Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim (i.e., one who submits all his will and all his desires totally, completely, wholeheartedly, perfectly to the will of Allah), as he preached that his followers should adopt the "straight path" as commanded by God.
- My Bible does not say that Jesus was a Muslim.
- My Bible says that He was the Son of the Living God.
Islam rejects the Trinitarian Christian view that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God, that he was ever crucified or resurrected, or that he ever atoned for the sins of mankind.
- My Bible affirms the concept of a triunity of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).
- My Bible affirms that Jesus was the Son of God and was God
[Jn 1:1 — In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:2 — The same was in the beginning with God.
Jn 1:3 — All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.]
- My Bible says that Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world (Jn 1:29).
The Quran says that Jesus himself never claimed any of these things, and it furthermore indicates that Jesus will deny having ever claimed divinity at the Last Judgment, and Allah will vindicate him.
- My Bible does not says anything about Jesus being vindicated by Allah.
The Quran emphasizes that Jesus was a mortal human being who, like all other prophets, had been divinely chosen to spread God's message.
- My Bible emphasizes that Jesus is the Son of the Living God. The manifestation of the invisible God made visible.
Islamic texts forbid the association of partners with God, emphasizing a strict notion of monotheism. However, the Qur'an says in, e.g., 9:24 — Say, [O Muhammad], "If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your relatives, wealth which you have obtained, commerce wherein you fear decline, and dwellings with which you are pleased are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and jihad in His cause, then wait until Allah executes His command. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people."
Also 3:32; 4:13; 4:14 talks about Allah and His Messenger placing Muhammad, just a man 18:110, at par with Allah.
- My Bible says that Jesus is NOT a mere man, but he is the GOD-Man. God manifest in the flesh. The invisible God made visible. God come to save mankind, God’s greatest creation; man created at God’s own image.
- My Bible teaches that Jesus was without sin, so, He certainly could die to atone the sins of others. The Koran teaches that Muhammad was a sinner (9:43; 40:55; 47:19; 48:2; 294:1-3) but the Koran teaches Jesus was sinless (19:19).
Not only is Israel the People of the Lord but they are the pupil of God’s eye (Deuteronomy 32:10). Israel is ever in the Eye of the Lord, the object of His constant and tenderest care.
There has never been a nation, a language, and a people dispersed all around the world that has ever survived. However, Israel as a nation exists today, the Hebrew language is alive and well today, and the people dispersed all around the world, the Lord is bringing back to their land Israel as He has promised to them, today.
Mulla Sadra
Member
Okay, you surely opened so much subjects, that I am not like this guy = K: to be able to answer all with evidences, because it would firstly lack the logical process, secondly, you would also change what I say to the opposite and then compel me to what I NEVER said.
So, I will be answering in a tiny answer for each thing, that shows our belief, but with no evidence whatsoever to prove it.
If you want to continue the discussion, I ask you as the one in the other side (who's almost being interrogated), to ask about one thing, like ask me "What is "Islam" " or "Who's Jesus in Islam?" or "What is the difference between you and me?" or "What's Jihad in Islam?".
So I can answer logically, starting with showing you all verses in Quran about the thing you are asking about (ALL VERSES, not cutting one verse from Quran and compel the other 6362 verses to it, we will talk about "Tafsir").
and ending with a conclusion, which I am sure, would be more fruitful for you, easier for me, better for those who read.
if not, then I am sorry, I can't continue what I see as non-useful rhetoric fight, with no rational basis whatsoever, I tell you "Yes", you tell me "No", or I tell you "No" you tell me "Yes". and if I do, I do have an ability to change to "deaf conversation" mode. but we are gentlemen more than that.
I feel I am more than loudly clear of what I mean.
And I thank you in advance to do that, and I promise you to be more than detailing if you wait to know every aspect of each thing you ask for, I won't be telling you what I believe, but what are all Muslim opinions in every subject you ask about (as much as, me your young brother, know of), and why each one believe what they believe.
But we would have to make the way how Muslims get clues out of their Quran to make a law, clear. we will be into that Insha'allah.
And, in end, my only goal, is to make ye know moe, and to me know more, so I will be more than eager in knowing what do Christians (Protestant, Catholic, Jewish ones, Orthodox ....etc) think of each subject, so don't be greedy in giving that opinion.
And praise be to my God, and your God (even though I believe they are the same, but you look like you don't) - just to close this long page we are having in each comment -.
Lastly, I hope you pick right.
And Peace be upon those with right guidance.
K: to be able to answer all with evidences, because it would firstly lack the logical process, secondly, you would also change what I say to the opposite and then compel me to what I NEVER said.So, I will be answering in a tiny answer for each thing, that shows our belief, but with no evidence whatsoever to prove it.
If you want to continue the discussion, I ask you as the one in the other side (who's almost being interrogated), to ask about one thing, like ask me "What is "Islam" " or "Who's Jesus in Islam?" or "What is the difference between you and me?" or "What's Jihad in Islam?".
So I can answer logically, starting with showing you all verses in Quran about the thing you are asking about (ALL VERSES, not cutting one verse from Quran and compel the other 6362 verses to it, we will talk about "Tafsir").
and ending with a conclusion, which I am sure, would be more fruitful for you, easier for me, better for those who read.
if not, then I am sorry, I can't continue what I see as non-useful rhetoric fight, with no rational basis whatsoever, I tell you "Yes", you tell me "No", or I tell you "No" you tell me "Yes". and if I do, I do have an ability to change to "deaf conversation" mode. but we are gentlemen more than that.
I feel I am more than loudly clear of what I mean.
And I thank you in advance to do that, and I promise you to be more than detailing if you wait to know every aspect of each thing you ask for, I won't be telling you what I believe, but what are all Muslim opinions in every subject you ask about (as much as, me your young brother, know of), and why each one believe what they believe.
But we would have to make the way how Muslims get clues out of their Quran to make a law, clear. we will be into that Insha'allah.
And, in end, my only goal, is to make ye know moe, and to me know more, so I will be more than eager in knowing what do Christians (Protestant, Catholic, Jewish ones, Orthodox ....etc) think of each subject, so don't be greedy in giving that opinion.
And praise be to my God, and your God (even though I believe they are the same, but you look like you don't) - just to close this long page we are having in each comment -.
Lastly, I hope you pick right.
And Peace be upon those with right guidance.
lifeisgood
New member
In Scripture, names of prophets always pertain to glorifying God, never a man.
But Muslims do exalt Mohammed beyond any other being — either in heaven or on earth.
When something as petty as a cartoon of Mohammed is published, Muslims throughout the world protest with an indignation that is unparalleled. Buildings were torched, dozens of Christians all over the world were murdered, and the cartoonist and his family now live in exile.
While Muslims adamantly deny that they exalt Mohammed to the place of God, whenever I read Muslim literature in English, I always see the acronym PBUH and went looking to find out what it stands for and found out that it stands for Peace Be upon Him following Mohammed’s name.
But this translation is misleading and inaccurate. In Arabic, the phrase translated as PBUH is Salla Allâhȗ `Alayhî wa sallam, which means, "the prayers and salutation of Allah be upon him [Mohammed]," so I am told.
How could Allah pray upon Mohammed? Ibn Katheer, the classical Qur’anic commentator corroborates this, "In the Arabic language, the basic meaning of “Sala” is “supplication.” In religious terminology, “Sala” is used to refer to the acts of bowing and prostration." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir; Al-Baqarah.)
So, why do Muslims leave out the fact that the word "prayer" is present in this phrase?
I’ll give you what I think:
Because the phrase that is repeated by millions of Muslims every day, actually means that Allah himself bows before and praise Mohammed.
I even found this same phrase in the Qur’an, "Allah and His Angels pray upon the Prophet. O ye who believe pray upon him and salute him with a worthy salutation" (Qur’an 33:56).
Mohammed is the center of praise both in heaven and on earth, "He (Allah) has subjected to you (Mohammed) whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth" (Qur’an 45:12).
Why Muslims endlessly accuse Christians of blasphemy when the Qur'an itself says that Allah and His angels "pray" upon Mohammed?
But Muslims do exalt Mohammed beyond any other being — either in heaven or on earth.
When something as petty as a cartoon of Mohammed is published, Muslims throughout the world protest with an indignation that is unparalleled. Buildings were torched, dozens of Christians all over the world were murdered, and the cartoonist and his family now live in exile.
While Muslims adamantly deny that they exalt Mohammed to the place of God, whenever I read Muslim literature in English, I always see the acronym PBUH and went looking to find out what it stands for and found out that it stands for Peace Be upon Him following Mohammed’s name.
But this translation is misleading and inaccurate. In Arabic, the phrase translated as PBUH is Salla Allâhȗ `Alayhî wa sallam, which means, "the prayers and salutation of Allah be upon him [Mohammed]," so I am told.
How could Allah pray upon Mohammed? Ibn Katheer, the classical Qur’anic commentator corroborates this, "In the Arabic language, the basic meaning of “Sala” is “supplication.” In religious terminology, “Sala” is used to refer to the acts of bowing and prostration." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir; Al-Baqarah.)
So, why do Muslims leave out the fact that the word "prayer" is present in this phrase?
I’ll give you what I think:
Because the phrase that is repeated by millions of Muslims every day, actually means that Allah himself bows before and praise Mohammed.
I even found this same phrase in the Qur’an, "Allah and His Angels pray upon the Prophet. O ye who believe pray upon him and salute him with a worthy salutation" (Qur’an 33:56).
Mohammed is the center of praise both in heaven and on earth, "He (Allah) has subjected to you (Mohammed) whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth" (Qur’an 45:12).
Why Muslims endlessly accuse Christians of blasphemy when the Qur'an itself says that Allah and His angels "pray" upon Mohammed?
Mulla Sadra
Member
I will leave the historical introduction you gave to your question, because it is non-useful in our theological discussion.
First of All, you must understand the next points :
1- Quran interprets itself by itself, if you bring a verse and interpret in a way that conflicts with the interpretation of an another verse, then your interpretation is wrong. (There's another side of this point, which is called "Muhkam and Mutashabih", I will leave for now, because it got no relation with your question).
2- Quran is interpreted by Hadeeth, if we don't find a verse that can help us interpret the verse we are studying, then we go back to Hadeeth (this also have rules in it, it is a science all alone in the clergy, I am surely not a master in, if we come by a Hadeeth like such, I will try my best to research it).
3- Logic and theory are part of this Religion, when we found ourselves out of Hadeeth and Quran, we interpret it as we see is best, and leave our interpretation to God.
4- The acceptance of Nation is also an evidence, but a relative one.
After that being said, Our subject's prayer and it's sections, before we go into it, I am going to show an example of every section of "prayers" we have in Islam :
Prayer of Humans to Allah :
(The next verses show the time of the five prayers, the five prayers - and such prayers, are the prayers of Humans to God in Islam, with other types surely) :
Establish prayer at the decline of the sun [from its meridian] until the darkness of the night and [also] the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed. And from [part of] the night, pray with it as additional [worship] for you; it is expected that your Lord will resurrect you to a praised station. [17:78/79]
Prayers from Humans to Humans :
(The sentence Allah's Blessings in Arabic is "prayers")
Take, [O, Muhammad], from their wealth a charity by which you purify them and cause them increase, and invoke "prayers" [ Allah 's blessings] upon them. Indeed, your invocations are reassurance for them. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing. [9:103]
Prayers from Angels to Humans :
As in the verse you wrote in the post.
Prayers from God to Humans :
[This verse is not about Muhammad as you can see, but about believers in general]
It is He and his Angels who confer blessing upon you [believers], and His angels that He may bring you out from darknesses into the light. And ever is He, to the believers, Merciful. [33:43]
Note : I changed in the translation from the link, because the translation is a direct interpretation and I am trying to introduce the idea to you. Also , the Arabic "Hom" adverb is in the verse, which means pluralism.
To Be continued.
First of All, you must understand the next points :
1- Quran interprets itself by itself, if you bring a verse and interpret in a way that conflicts with the interpretation of an another verse, then your interpretation is wrong. (There's another side of this point, which is called "Muhkam and Mutashabih", I will leave for now, because it got no relation with your question).
2- Quran is interpreted by Hadeeth, if we don't find a verse that can help us interpret the verse we are studying, then we go back to Hadeeth (this also have rules in it, it is a science all alone in the clergy, I am surely not a master in, if we come by a Hadeeth like such, I will try my best to research it).
3- Logic and theory are part of this Religion, when we found ourselves out of Hadeeth and Quran, we interpret it as we see is best, and leave our interpretation to God.
4- The acceptance of Nation is also an evidence, but a relative one.
After that being said, Our subject's prayer and it's sections, before we go into it, I am going to show an example of every section of "prayers" we have in Islam :
Prayer of Humans to Allah :
(The next verses show the time of the five prayers, the five prayers - and such prayers, are the prayers of Humans to God in Islam, with other types surely) :
Establish prayer at the decline of the sun [from its meridian] until the darkness of the night and [also] the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed. And from [part of] the night, pray with it as additional [worship] for you; it is expected that your Lord will resurrect you to a praised station. [17:78/79]
Prayers from Humans to Humans :
(The sentence Allah's Blessings in Arabic is "prayers")
Take, [O, Muhammad], from their wealth a charity by which you purify them and cause them increase, and invoke "prayers" [ Allah 's blessings] upon them. Indeed, your invocations are reassurance for them. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing. [9:103]
Prayers from Angels to Humans :
As in the verse you wrote in the post.
Prayers from God to Humans :
[This verse is not about Muhammad as you can see, but about believers in general]
It is He and his Angels who confer blessing upon you [believers], and His angels that He may bring you out from darknesses into the light. And ever is He, to the believers, Merciful. [33:43]
Note : I changed in the translation from the link, because the translation is a direct interpretation and I am trying to introduce the idea to you. Also , the Arabic "Hom" adverb is in the verse, which means pluralism.
To Be continued.
Well... since you're trying to convert a muslim I suppose the world remains in balance... a secularist and it might ruin the economy.
Mulla Sadra
Member
What is PBUH ?
PBUH in Arabic reads as :
صلى الله عليه و سلم
means, prayers [blessings] and peace be upon the prophet.
Shia/Sunni Split : Shia say you MUST say (Prayers and peace be upon the prophet and his household) , Sunna don't specify that.
You said :
So, why do Muslims leave out the fact that the word "prayer" is present in this phrase?
Some people mean "Prayers" in the abbreviation PBUH and others mean "Peace".
They don't leave it out, but they decided not to use it, because it is not easy to show them the four sections of Prayers, and people judge so fast.
[if you go back in pages, you will see that I talked about this subject with .... the guy with the republican candidate in his avatar]
So What's the meaning of the four sections ?
The first : Prayer of Humans to Allah :
Is the, as Ibn Katheer, as you say, says : the acts of bowing and prostration
and it is part of the Sharia, and an obligation on faithful for five times a day, in the average of 17 "bow" in one day. (it is better to pray the other extra prayers called "Nawafil" which makes the sum 51 bow a day).
The verb usually connected to this prayer is "Aqim" which means "build", because this prayer is the pillar of Islam.
The second : Prayers from humans to humans :
is a "Dua'a" for them.
Dua'a is a (strategy) to talk to God, just like a calling.
Salafist Sunna say : the righteous human can't call instead of another human only if alive
Shia and Most of Sunna say : A muslim is able to make a human as a "Waseela", a medium, to Allah, Dead or alive.
The Third : Prayers from Angels to Humans :
There are two interpretations (Quran didn't detail the case, and Hadeeth wasn't clear about it too).
The first : Just like if a human pray to a human, is a "Dua'a"
The second : they work as "asking God" to pray on that person
The Fourth, Our Case : As Quran say in the verse I quoted earlier, is a (bringing out from darkness to light) and it means glorifying of a person and also a mercy from God on that person, and asking from us to Allah to give praise for the one who is prayed upon, in heavens.
Simply, it is a "Bless".
This is not for Prophet Muhammad only:
1- Messengers of God are all prayed upon, in the same way we pray on Muhammad.
In every prayer we say :
May Allah Pray and salute Muhammad and his household as he prayed and saluted Abraham and his household, Allah is the most praised and most glorious.
2- Imams, like in Imam Ali, we say the same sentence in Arabic (as Shi'ite)
3- It is ALLOWED in the theology to use the term for every righteous person, the problem is that we don't know if they get the "Maqam", the place were Allah Praise and bless them (which is a ... very high position from Allah).
So, no one use it only in people whom the Quran/Hadeeth made explicitly such titling for them, who are 1 and 2.
To Be Continued.
PBUH in Arabic reads as :
صلى الله عليه و سلم
means, prayers [blessings] and peace be upon the prophet.
Shia/Sunni Split : Shia say you MUST say (Prayers and peace be upon the prophet and his household) , Sunna don't specify that.
You said :
So, why do Muslims leave out the fact that the word "prayer" is present in this phrase?
Some people mean "Prayers" in the abbreviation PBUH and others mean "Peace".
They don't leave it out, but they decided not to use it, because it is not easy to show them the four sections of Prayers, and people judge so fast.
[if you go back in pages, you will see that I talked about this subject with .... the guy with the republican candidate in his avatar]
So What's the meaning of the four sections ?
The first : Prayer of Humans to Allah :
Is the, as Ibn Katheer, as you say, says : the acts of bowing and prostration
and it is part of the Sharia, and an obligation on faithful for five times a day, in the average of 17 "bow" in one day. (it is better to pray the other extra prayers called "Nawafil" which makes the sum 51 bow a day).
The verb usually connected to this prayer is "Aqim" which means "build", because this prayer is the pillar of Islam.
The second : Prayers from humans to humans :
is a "Dua'a" for them.
Dua'a is a (strategy) to talk to God, just like a calling.
Salafist Sunna say : the righteous human can't call instead of another human only if alive
Shia and Most of Sunna say : A muslim is able to make a human as a "Waseela", a medium, to Allah, Dead or alive.
The Third : Prayers from Angels to Humans :
There are two interpretations (Quran didn't detail the case, and Hadeeth wasn't clear about it too).
The first : Just like if a human pray to a human, is a "Dua'a"
The second : they work as "asking God" to pray on that person
The Fourth, Our Case : As Quran say in the verse I quoted earlier, is a (bringing out from darkness to light) and it means glorifying of a person and also a mercy from God on that person, and asking from us to Allah to give praise for the one who is prayed upon, in heavens.
Simply, it is a "Bless".
This is not for Prophet Muhammad only:
1- Messengers of God are all prayed upon, in the same way we pray on Muhammad.
In every prayer we say :
May Allah Pray and salute Muhammad and his household as he prayed and saluted Abraham and his household, Allah is the most praised and most glorious.
2- Imams, like in Imam Ali, we say the same sentence in Arabic (as Shi'ite)
3- It is ALLOWED in the theology to use the term for every righteous person, the problem is that we don't know if they get the "Maqam", the place were Allah Praise and bless them (which is a ... very high position from Allah).
So, no one use it only in people whom the Quran/Hadeeth made explicitly such titling for them, who are 1 and 2.
To Be Continued.
Mulla Sadra
Member
Allah says in Quran :
And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah , who created them, if it should be Him that you worship. [41:37]
O you who have believed, bow and prostrate and worship your Lord and do good - that you may succeed. [22:77]
And these verse mean, there's no Bowing nor Prostrating but for Allah, this is an evidence from Quran, the evidence from Hadeeth is, the "Sahih" Hadeeth that says :
It's never right for a human to prostrate but to Allah, and if I was allowed to order a human to prostrate to a human, I would've ordered the woman to prostrate to her husband, for his right on her.
The evidence from Logic, is that Prostrating and Bowing are (for sane) signs of glorifying the one God, and thus, can't be given to someone else.
The evidence from Acceptance, this is Muslims theology since Muhammad, whether they were Sunna or Shia.
-------
Answering some stuff in your post :
Peace and Salute :
The Salute of Islam is "Peace", which makes both translations right, Peace and Salute.
How could Allah pray upon Mohammed? Ibn Katheer, the classical Qur’anic commentator corroborates this, "In the Arabic language, the basic meaning of “Sala” is “supplication.” In religious terminology, “Sala” is used to refer to the acts of bowing and prostration." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir; Al-Baqarah.)
(it doesn't tell what verse was Ibn Katheer interpreting)
As had been showed, this is about a different section, Ibn Katheer was trying to show the "terminology" from something else.
In interpreting the verse (Allah and His Angels pray upon the Prophet. O ye who believe pray upon him and salute him with a worthy salutation), Ibn Katheer says :
The prayer of Allah on him is praising Muhammad and blessing, to Angels, is a "Dua'a".
(Arabic Link)
So, it is a Fallacy, to bring the interpretation of another verse and forcing it to another section.
(this thing is also about the word "Dua'a" not just "Salat", which means in some verses "Dua'a" or its root-verb "Ad'uo" may mean the five prayers).
You said :
Mohammed is the center of praise both in heaven and on earth, "He (Allah) has subjected to you (Mohammed) whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth" (Qur’an 45:12).
First : what does this have with PBUH ?!
Second : the verse is about, sons of Adam (Humans), looks like you read the translation, and didn't see the (لكم) and (تشكرون) and (تبتغوا), which all mean Plural in no glorification way (because - vaguely saying - it is not a verb to be, but a straight verb), so it is about Adam and Humans.
Thirdly : the meaning of Adam's control on earth is in many other places of Quran :
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels [in the creation of Adam], "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, "Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful." [2:30/31]
Fourth : Same meaning was given to David and many other prophets in Quran and Hadeeth, as part of their miracles:
And We certainly gave David from Us bounty. [We said], "O mountains, repeat [Our] praises with him, and the birds [as well]." And We made pliable for him iron,[Commanding him], "Make full coats of mail and calculate [precisely] the links, and work [all of you] righteousness. Indeed I, of what you do, am Seeing." [34:10/11]
Fifith : there's no Tafsir in my hand that says the verse is about Muhammad, all speak of the authority of Human over earth, as the verse is straight-forward about that in Arabic, because of the plural verbs everywhere, IT CAN'T BE ABOUT MUHAMMAD.
----
And Praise be to God.
And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah , who created them, if it should be Him that you worship. [41:37]
O you who have believed, bow and prostrate and worship your Lord and do good - that you may succeed. [22:77]
And these verse mean, there's no Bowing nor Prostrating but for Allah, this is an evidence from Quran, the evidence from Hadeeth is, the "Sahih" Hadeeth that says :
It's never right for a human to prostrate but to Allah, and if I was allowed to order a human to prostrate to a human, I would've ordered the woman to prostrate to her husband, for his right on her.
The evidence from Logic, is that Prostrating and Bowing are (for sane) signs of glorifying the one God, and thus, can't be given to someone else.
The evidence from Acceptance, this is Muslims theology since Muhammad, whether they were Sunna or Shia.
-------
Answering some stuff in your post :
Peace and Salute :
The Salute of Islam is "Peace", which makes both translations right, Peace and Salute.
How could Allah pray upon Mohammed? Ibn Katheer, the classical Qur’anic commentator corroborates this, "In the Arabic language, the basic meaning of “Sala” is “supplication.” In religious terminology, “Sala” is used to refer to the acts of bowing and prostration." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir; Al-Baqarah.)
(it doesn't tell what verse was Ibn Katheer interpreting)
As had been showed, this is about a different section, Ibn Katheer was trying to show the "terminology" from something else.
In interpreting the verse (Allah and His Angels pray upon the Prophet. O ye who believe pray upon him and salute him with a worthy salutation), Ibn Katheer says :
The prayer of Allah on him is praising Muhammad and blessing, to Angels, is a "Dua'a".
(Arabic Link)
So, it is a Fallacy, to bring the interpretation of another verse and forcing it to another section.
(this thing is also about the word "Dua'a" not just "Salat", which means in some verses "Dua'a" or its root-verb "Ad'uo" may mean the five prayers).
You said :
Mohammed is the center of praise both in heaven and on earth, "He (Allah) has subjected to you (Mohammed) whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth" (Qur’an 45:12).
First : what does this have with PBUH ?!
Second : the verse is about, sons of Adam (Humans), looks like you read the translation, and didn't see the (لكم) and (تشكرون) and (تبتغوا), which all mean Plural in no glorification way (because - vaguely saying - it is not a verb to be, but a straight verb), so it is about Adam and Humans.
Thirdly : the meaning of Adam's control on earth is in many other places of Quran :
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels [in the creation of Adam], "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, "Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful." [2:30/31]
Fourth : Same meaning was given to David and many other prophets in Quran and Hadeeth, as part of their miracles:
And We certainly gave David from Us bounty. [We said], "O mountains, repeat [Our] praises with him, and the birds [as well]." And We made pliable for him iron,[Commanding him], "Make full coats of mail and calculate [precisely] the links, and work [all of you] righteousness. Indeed I, of what you do, am Seeing." [34:10/11]
Fifith : there's no Tafsir in my hand that says the verse is about Muhammad, all speak of the authority of Human over earth, as the verse is straight-forward about that in Arabic, because of the plural verbs everywhere, IT CAN'T BE ABOUT MUHAMMAD.
----
And Praise be to God.
Wow, I actually agree with you for once!
lifeisgood
New member
So you worship God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)? I think not! Therefore, I conclude that we do not believe and worship the SAME God.
You have to make sure that the “plan of Salvation” is God’s Plan of Salvation.
God’s Plan of Salvation is this: Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross, exclusively, has eternal life.
Jesus Christ said, “I AM the way, [I AM] the truth, [I AM] the life, no man [nobody — man, woman, boy or girl] comes to the Father if not by Me” (John 16:4).
I believe that before Abraham, everybody was pagan, worshiping many different gods or idols. Even Abraham was an idol worshiper, until God called him to separate himself from his family, his land, etc.
Thank you for the explanation.
There is no such a thing as American Jew. There are Americans who are Jews.
I am sorry that you think I am interrogating.
You do not have to answer anything you feel you do not want to.
As you say above, they were “just bunch of merchants in Mecca.” I can tell you what I heard you said, but I will not bother you with that.
I disagree with you totally. Do you worship God as Father, Son, Holy Spirit? No! Therefore, we do not believe in same God.
II Timothy 3:16 — All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
II Timothy 3:17 — That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Last book of my Bible written around 100 A.D.
Mohammed born around year 570 A.D., after my Bible was written. So, I conclude that Qur'an written after 570 A.D.
Does not resolve the issue, but, thank you for the explanation.
My Bible says he had 12 sons with three wives, Hagar, Sarah, Keturah.
That you “doubt the story” does not mean it is not true.
Not even close to what my Bible says.
I had no idea that Abraham ruined statues. New one on me.
So the Hadeeth agrees with my Bible that Abraham is from Ur of the Chaldees.
I think because the Qur'an is evasive about this issue is where the confusion comes from.
Ishmael is Isaac’s son? Isaac his own son?
Well, the Jewish Bible was written thousands of years before the Qur'an, so, I would think that the Jewish Bible would be the correct one. But, that is a decision you will have to make.
As you say that some Imams say as the Jews and Christians say that it was Isaac. Probably because the Qur'an is evasive on this subject. I mean the Qur'an does not specifically states that it was Ishmael that was to be sacrificed as the Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible says that it was Isaac that Abraham was to sacrifice.
I would say being that the Jewish Bible was written thousands of years before the Qur'an, that God gave it to the Jewish people first, then God inspired certain prophets, such as, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Micah, etc.
The Bible of the Judeo-Christian was not modified. That propaganda comes from people who choose not to believe in the Judeo-Christian Bible.
Insults so soon?
Hello again Mulla.
There are a few things which I discovered, while researching in an effort to understand the apparent Muslim philosophy of violence, which you have not made clear to the people in this forum. Perhaps you cant for reasons Westerners don't understand.
Westerners see the Muslim faith as a united group. This is simply not the case. the various sects are and have been for centuries, so different that they are essentially at war with one another. Saying the wrong thing to the wrong person can literally result in your death.
Christians argue about the virtues of different theologies between different religions but we know nothing that compares with the divisions among the Muslim interpretations of the Quran.
The main trouble makers are a relatively small sect with enormous power who believe they are justified by Allah, in killing anybody who speaks against them.
Imagine, if you will, the KKK as Government of the U.S. Imagine them with the wealth that control of world oil resources would bring. Imagine how you would feel when the rest of the world began judging all Christians by the behaviours of the KKK in absolute power. Are we all nice and comfy with that image? That is the position that average Muslims find themselves in today.
Muslims are not Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda are considered to be Heretics by the vast majority of Muslims. You only get to say that once at which time one's head is removed and silence ensues.
Historically, this brand of the Muslim faith stems from a Bedoin tribe of poorly educated nomads, who put a very questionable 'spin' on the Quran and used it to rob pillage and kill along the silk road in the name of Allah. They became wealthy as a nice side benefit, while destroying anything they decided was against their philosophy. This included many other Muslims, and the great temple in honour of Mahammud himself. Only Mecca was spared their destructive influence.
As luck would have it their tribal grounds were found to be on the richest oil deposits in the world and the British formed a nice new State for them called Saudi Arabia. They, the Wahabite sect, suddenly had unimaginable wealth and total government control from that time forward.
Again. in numbers they are a very small proportion of an otherwise peaceful religion. The question was asked about the number of idiots. Not many really. they are just enormously wealthy and powerful and the world doesn't want to take them to task because of our addiction to their oil.
No reply is needed to that Mulla. I do have a question which was raised in a recent TV program though. It was stated that women are required by the Quran to cover their hair at all times but that there is nothing requiring them to cover their face. Is that true? If untrue where is that requirement made?
There are a few things which I discovered, while researching in an effort to understand the apparent Muslim philosophy of violence, which you have not made clear to the people in this forum. Perhaps you cant for reasons Westerners don't understand.
Westerners see the Muslim faith as a united group. This is simply not the case. the various sects are and have been for centuries, so different that they are essentially at war with one another. Saying the wrong thing to the wrong person can literally result in your death.
Christians argue about the virtues of different theologies between different religions but we know nothing that compares with the divisions among the Muslim interpretations of the Quran.
The main trouble makers are a relatively small sect with enormous power who believe they are justified by Allah, in killing anybody who speaks against them.
Imagine, if you will, the KKK as Government of the U.S. Imagine them with the wealth that control of world oil resources would bring. Imagine how you would feel when the rest of the world began judging all Christians by the behaviours of the KKK in absolute power. Are we all nice and comfy with that image? That is the position that average Muslims find themselves in today.
Muslims are not Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda are considered to be Heretics by the vast majority of Muslims. You only get to say that once at which time one's head is removed and silence ensues.
Historically, this brand of the Muslim faith stems from a Bedoin tribe of poorly educated nomads, who put a very questionable 'spin' on the Quran and used it to rob pillage and kill along the silk road in the name of Allah. They became wealthy as a nice side benefit, while destroying anything they decided was against their philosophy. This included many other Muslims, and the great temple in honour of Mahammud himself. Only Mecca was spared their destructive influence.
As luck would have it their tribal grounds were found to be on the richest oil deposits in the world and the British formed a nice new State for them called Saudi Arabia. They, the Wahabite sect, suddenly had unimaginable wealth and total government control from that time forward.
Again. in numbers they are a very small proportion of an otherwise peaceful religion. The question was asked about the number of idiots. Not many really. they are just enormously wealthy and powerful and the world doesn't want to take them to task because of our addiction to their oil.
No reply is needed to that Mulla. I do have a question which was raised in a recent TV program though. It was stated that women are required by the Quran to cover their hair at all times but that there is nothing requiring them to cover their face. Is that true? If untrue where is that requirement made?
Mulla Sadra
Member
Lifeisgood, You clearly broke what I demanded from you, You could've asked all again each one by one.
you opened these subjects :
1- Do we worship SAME God.
2- Salvation.
3- Jews in Arabia before Islam (which is a historical subject).
4- Stories in Quran and Bible.
(It was a typing mistake, was sleepy a little, but you could've managed to know that I means Abraham not Isaac)
5- Bible (which got nothing with us BTW)
And other subjects in between.
And as I said, you either open one subject or I can't answer many at ones, I am human BTW.
And when I answered your one question with three long comments, I thought that what I demanded (with love), was made true, I didn't even get a thanks for showing the fallacy you had in PBUH.
Thanks anyways.
you opened these subjects :
1- Do we worship SAME God.
2- Salvation.
3- Jews in Arabia before Islam (which is a historical subject).
4- Stories in Quran and Bible.
(It was a typing mistake, was sleepy a little, but you could've managed to know that I means Abraham not Isaac)
5- Bible (which got nothing with us BTW)
And other subjects in between.
And as I said, you either open one subject or I can't answer many at ones, I am human BTW.
And when I answered your one question with three long comments, I thought that what I demanded (with love), was made true, I didn't even get a thanks for showing the fallacy you had in PBUH.
Thanks anyways.
Mulla Sadra
Member
Allah says :
And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.
--------
The problems is in the "headcover" in the verse which is in Quran (Khimarhuna).
Sunni Story :
The known Acceptance (what Muslims have been on for the first 1000 years -- till before Colonialism came to Middle-East), is that it meant the whole cover (Burqa), even though the word is ambiguous, but people were wearing the Burqa, it was their clothes, so no one thought about does it mean other than what is on ground.
The Hadeeth is conflicted about the verse, meaning of "adornment", one hadeeth (Sunna see is "weak"), says the adornment is face, hands and foot. (they say the adornment on what "expect what appears" in the verse is the face, foot and hands)
The other says it is the known adornment, that may appear. (from clothes and such).
Salafists (Wahhabis) maintain that there's "full acceptance between clerics" on Hijab being ... Burqa.
But, as you can see, the acceptance between the whole nation (as people), is that face, foot and hands are not part of the Hijab.
Edit : I found clerics from older times who had another opinion :
1- Ibn Abdul-Bir and he said, this is the opinion of majority of (Maliki) clerics. He died in circa 463 (Dates are in Islamic calender, this year is 1434.)
2- Al-Tahawi said that it is alright to look at a woman face with no (desire), and said it is the opinion of Imam Abu Hanifa, the great muslim scholar, Tahawi died 321.
3- Al-Bayhaqi said the same thing in his Tafsir, died in 458.
4- Al-Tabari , died in 310.
5- Al-Jassas, known to be born 305.
6- Ibn-Huzum died 456
and others..
So the opinion of "acceptance" is what Salafists (Wahhabis) say, I will check more about this case later.
Shia Story :
While the Hadeeth conflicted with Sunna, Shia have a Hadeeth from numerous Imams (who are in Sharia, same as the prophet in ordering laws, because their laws are his), about the "face, foot and hands".
BUT...
There are many Hadeeths that state that the women of Ahlu-albayt (household of the prophet), as his daughter Fatima (Peace be upon her), his granddaughter Zaynab (Peace be upon her) and the daughters of Imam Hussein wore Niqab regularly, and were known of social leading, and making speeches ahead of men and women, wearing Niqab.
Where the massacre of Karbala shows that they wear Niqab (as a hijab) and when (after killing of Hussein, the grandson of the prophet, by.... muslims!), Yazid's army took the women of the household of the prophet ("face shown"), which was for them, something not right and part of being "captive".
In Shi'ite Fiqh, every "Marja'" is legislator inside the limits of Quran and Hadeeth.
Imam Khoei, says that if "Fitna" (means distress) by society is held upon the women, then she can unwear the "Niqab" (Niqab = Burqa, somehow), which means he see it a MUST - almost like Wahhabis - if there's no "fitna".
Imam Sistani (the grandest marja' right now), made the idea of "fitna" wider, from society to the women, he says (if the woman shows her face in any reason but to try to "fall a man", she's permitted to), which makes it something between Allah and the woman.
Then, the MUST is to cover all body but face, and covering the face is better if she is feared of social (violation), and she mustn't not wear it for the mere reason of seducing others.
Sayyid Fadhlullah goes further and see the wearing of "Niqab" is FORBIDDEN (practically) in non-muslim countries, because it gives Islam a bad name.
---
To be Continued.
Last edited:
Mulla Sadra
Member
EDIT :
Edit : I found clerics from older times who had another opinion [about acceptance on covering face] :
1- Ibn Abdul-Bir and he said, this is the opinion of majority of (Maliki) clerics. He died in circa 463 (Dates are in Islamic calender, this year is 1434.)
2- Al-Tahawi said that it is alright to look at a woman face with no (desire), and said it is the opinion of Imam Abu Hanifa, the great muslim scholar, Tahawi died 321.
3- Al-Bayhaqi said the same thing in his Tafsir, died in 458.
4- Al-Tabari , died in 310.
5- Al-Jassas, known to be born 305.
6- Ibn-Huzum died 456
and others..
So the opinion of old "acceptance" is what Salafists (Wahhabis) say, I will check more about this case later.
-------
Edit : I found clerics from older times who had another opinion [about acceptance on covering face] :
1- Ibn Abdul-Bir and he said, this is the opinion of majority of (Maliki) clerics. He died in circa 463 (Dates are in Islamic calender, this year is 1434.)
2- Al-Tahawi said that it is alright to look at a woman face with no (desire), and said it is the opinion of Imam Abu Hanifa, the great muslim scholar, Tahawi died 321.
3- Al-Bayhaqi said the same thing in his Tafsir, died in 458.
4- Al-Tabari , died in 310.
5- Al-Jassas, known to be born 305.
6- Ibn-Huzum died 456
and others..
So the opinion of old "acceptance" is what Salafists (Wahhabis) say, I will check more about this case later.
-------
lifeisgood
New member
Thank you Mulla for the explanation about your prayers.
However, that was not my question. The question was why do Muslims accuse Christians of blaspheming when we pray when Allah himself prays.
Allah worships, praises and glorifies like his creatures do since he prays like them! In fact, Allah even recites chapters from the Quran like Muslims do in their prayers!
Just to give one example:
And since the Quran depicts Allah praying by using the very same words which denote praise, worship and glorification Allah must therefore be praising, glorifying, worshiping etc. himself and/or someone else.
Lo and behold this is precisely what Allah does according to the following Islamic authority!
The Meaning of Salah
Allah's Salah means that HE PRAISES HIS SERVANT BEFORE THE ANGELS, as Al-Bukhari recorded from Abu Al-`Aliyah. This was recorded by Abu Ja`far Ar-Razi from Ar-Rabi` bin Anas from Anas. Others said: “Allah's Salah means mercy.”' It may be said that there is no contradiction between these two views. And Allah knows best. Salah from the angels means their supplication and seeking forgiveness for people, as Allah says…
(Those who bear the Throne and those around it glorify the praises of their Lord, and believe in Him, and ask forgiveness for those who believe (saying): "Our Lord! You comprehend all things in mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who repent and follow Your way, and save them from the torment of the blazing Fire! Our Lord! And make them enter the `Adn Garden which you have promised them -- and to the righteous among their fathers, their wives, and their offspring! Verily, You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. And save them from the sins.'') (40:7-9) …
(that He may bring you out from darkness into light.) means, by means of His mercy towards you, HIS PRAISE OF YOU and the supplication of His angels for you, He brings you forth from the darkness of ignorance and misguidance into the light of guidance and certain faith. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Q. 33:43; capital and underline emphasis mine)
The Command to say Salah upon the Prophet
Al-Bukhari said: “Abu Al-`Aliyah said: ‘Allah's Salah is HIS PRAISING HIM BEFORE THE ANGELS, and the Salah of the angels is their supplication.’” Ibn `Abbas said: “They send blessings.” Abu `Isa At-Tirmidhi said: “This was narrated from Sufyan Ath-Thawri and other scholars, who said: ‘The Salah of the Lord is mercy, and the Salah of the angels is their seeking forgiveness.’” There are Mutawatir Hadiths narrated from the Messenger of Allah commanding us to send blessings on him and how we should say Salah upon him. We will mention as many of them as we can, if Allah wills, and Allah is the One Whose help we seek… (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Q. 33:56; capital and underline emphasis ours)
Allah’s prayers consist of praising his slaves such as Muhammad before the angels in heaven!
Ibn Kathir's statements also imply that Allah is actually praying to his angels since he is directly addressing them when he prays and invokes praises upon his servants!
Thus, just as Muslims are praising and glorifying someone when they pray, Allah is also praising and glorifying certain persons when he prays! In the case of Muslims they are glorifying and praising Allah, whereas in Allah’s case he is actually glorifying and praising Muhammad and the believers! And just as the object of Muslim prayers is Allah since they are directly addressing him whenever they pray, the object of Allah's prayers happen to be the angels whom he directly addresses whenever he praises his servants!
The God of my Bible does not pray at all.
However, that was not my question. The question was why do Muslims accuse Christians of blaspheming when we pray when Allah himself prays.
Allah worships, praises and glorifies like his creatures do since he prays like them! In fact, Allah even recites chapters from the Quran like Muslims do in their prayers!
Just to give one example:
And since the Quran depicts Allah praying by using the very same words which denote praise, worship and glorification Allah must therefore be praising, glorifying, worshiping etc. himself and/or someone else.
Lo and behold this is precisely what Allah does according to the following Islamic authority!
The Meaning of Salah
Allah's Salah means that HE PRAISES HIS SERVANT BEFORE THE ANGELS, as Al-Bukhari recorded from Abu Al-`Aliyah. This was recorded by Abu Ja`far Ar-Razi from Ar-Rabi` bin Anas from Anas. Others said: “Allah's Salah means mercy.”' It may be said that there is no contradiction between these two views. And Allah knows best. Salah from the angels means their supplication and seeking forgiveness for people, as Allah says…
(Those who bear the Throne and those around it glorify the praises of their Lord, and believe in Him, and ask forgiveness for those who believe (saying): "Our Lord! You comprehend all things in mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who repent and follow Your way, and save them from the torment of the blazing Fire! Our Lord! And make them enter the `Adn Garden which you have promised them -- and to the righteous among their fathers, their wives, and their offspring! Verily, You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. And save them from the sins.'') (40:7-9) …
(that He may bring you out from darkness into light.) means, by means of His mercy towards you, HIS PRAISE OF YOU and the supplication of His angels for you, He brings you forth from the darkness of ignorance and misguidance into the light of guidance and certain faith. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Q. 33:43; capital and underline emphasis mine)
The Command to say Salah upon the Prophet
Al-Bukhari said: “Abu Al-`Aliyah said: ‘Allah's Salah is HIS PRAISING HIM BEFORE THE ANGELS, and the Salah of the angels is their supplication.’” Ibn `Abbas said: “They send blessings.” Abu `Isa At-Tirmidhi said: “This was narrated from Sufyan Ath-Thawri and other scholars, who said: ‘The Salah of the Lord is mercy, and the Salah of the angels is their seeking forgiveness.’” There are Mutawatir Hadiths narrated from the Messenger of Allah commanding us to send blessings on him and how we should say Salah upon him. We will mention as many of them as we can, if Allah wills, and Allah is the One Whose help we seek… (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Q. 33:56; capital and underline emphasis ours)
Allah’s prayers consist of praising his slaves such as Muhammad before the angels in heaven!
Ibn Kathir's statements also imply that Allah is actually praying to his angels since he is directly addressing them when he prays and invokes praises upon his servants!
Thus, just as Muslims are praising and glorifying someone when they pray, Allah is also praising and glorifying certain persons when he prays! In the case of Muslims they are glorifying and praising Allah, whereas in Allah’s case he is actually glorifying and praising Muhammad and the believers! And just as the object of Muslim prayers is Allah since they are directly addressing him whenever they pray, the object of Allah's prayers happen to be the angels whom he directly addresses whenever he praises his servants!
The God of my Bible does not pray at all.
lifeisgood
New member
I do not follow demands from anybody.
And I said that you could answer only those that you wanted to answer. I am not even demanding that you answer any of my posts. You can always ignore me.
You can choose to answer just one item or two. You do not have to answer everything. Sometimes it takes me days to answer one post because I have to think about it or I do not have the time to do it all at a particular time.
There is freedom here. You do not have to feel you are being forced to do anything. That is one of the things I love about the West, you decide if you want or you do not want to do something. You are free to choose.
It was a very good explanation. I am sorry it took so long for me to respond.
P.S. - When you say 'I demanded' it will be automatically that you will not receive what you are demanding. You can ask, but demand is not a good way to have conversations. 'I demand' sounds like you are the superior to the other person and that does not work. It might work in your neck of the woods but it does not work in my neck of the woods.