Mr. Religion and His Calvinistic Nonsense

[Jerry Shugart]

(Luke 16:16) "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

HINT: Jesus preached after John.

Jesus preached the good news of the kingdom, not the law of Moses.

if the covenant of the law had ended with the coming of the Lord Jesus then why did He say this?:

"And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them" (Mt.8:2-4).​

The thing which ended at with the coming of John was the "dispensation" of the law and not the "covenant" of the law.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What I'm saying is that what you posted (without response) doesn't appear to really challenge AMR's position.

His position is challenged by what the Scriptures teach, specifically the verses which I quoted to him.

Since he could not possibly answer those verses he did not even attempt to do so. Perhaps you want to defend his idea?

 

[God's Truth]

The Lord Jesus Christ taught straight out of the law-one, of many:

Mark 12 KJV


28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, [U]Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself[/U]. There is none other commandment greater than these.




Lev 19 KJV

And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the Lord your God am holy.

3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the Lord your God.

4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the Lord your God.

5 And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the Lord, ye shall offer it at your own will. 6 It shall be eaten the same day ye offer it, and on the morrow: and if ought remain until the third day, it shall be burnt in the fire. 7 And if it be eaten at all on the third day, it is abominable; it shall not be accepted. 8 Therefore every one that eateth it shall bear his iniquity, because he hath profaned the hallowed thing of the Lord: and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest. 10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the Lord your God.

11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.

13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the Lord.

15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the Lord.

17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Jesus taught the NEW LAW.

The old law says to get circumcised in the flesh.

Jesus circumcises us in the heart.

The old law says to observe special days.

Observing special days is no longer required because all those days were a shadow about Jesus and Jesus came and there are not shadows in light.

We observe Jesus all day every day.

The old law says to do various external washings before going to temple and give animal sacrifices.

Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God and he cleans us and we become the temple.

The old law says no eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth and hand for a hand and foot for a foot.

Jesus says no.

The old law says three divorces.

Jesus says no to that.

Jesus is our new High Priest.

For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also---Hebrews 7:12.

Again, Jesus is the change in the priesthood and the law WAS ALSO CHANGED.

 

[God's Truth]

if the covenant of the law had ended with the coming of the Lord Jesus then why did He say this?:

"And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them" (Mt.8:2-4).​

The thing which ended at with the coming of John was the "dispensation" of the law and not the "covenant" of the law.

Are you kidding? Then why did Jesus make a NEW COVENANT?

 

[Robert Pate]

Jesus taught the NEW LAW.

The old law says to get circumcised in the flesh.

Jesus circumcises us in the heart.

The old law says to observe special days.

Observing special days is no longer required because all those days were a shadow about Jesus and Jesus came and there are not shadows in light.

We observe Jesus all day every day.

The old law says to do various external washings before going to temple and give animal sacrifices.

Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God and he cleans us and we become the temple.

The old law says no eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth and hand for a hand and foot for a foot.

Jesus says no.

The old law says three divorces.

Jesus says no to that.

Jesus is our new High Priest.

For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also---Hebrews 7:12.

Again, Jesus is the change in the priesthood and the law WAS ALSO CHANGED.

The law was not changed. The law was abolished, Ephesians 2:15.

Christians don't live according to rules or laws. Christians live by the Spirit of Christ, Romans 8:2.

 

[nikolai_42]

His position is challenged by what the Scriptures teach, specifically the verses which I quoted to him.

Since he could not possibly answer those verses he did not even attempt to do so. Perhaps you want to defend his idea?

Not sure how good an idea that is...argue someone else's point when it may or may not perfectly coincide with my own. I am likely to put words in AMR's mouth or contradict (unknowingly) something he holds.

To be honest, I think the crux of the disagreement comes down to whether or not a man dead in trespasses and sin can (in that state) have efficacious faith and exercise it. AMR says "no" and you (I believe) say "yes". I don't think the issue is so much with the order as with the action. AMR's early post defining his terms spells out in great detail how he sees things happening. You then take issue with the final statement which has faith as evidence of God's work in a man's life - you think it should be primary (there before anything else) and that a man must have it and exercise it before God will save Him. You quote (among other things) Paul's words to the Philippian jailer as support for your belief that faith is the cause of salvation :

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:30-31

But if you are going to approach things that way, then you have to reckon with scriptures such as this :

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:25-27

What Jesus says indicates that belief is NOT the cause of salvation - but rather belonging to God. Reading John 5, there is much that puts off where this belief starts (if we are to accept that belief brings about life). Jesus says this to the unbelieving Jews :

And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John 5:37-40

They thought they had eternal life in the scriptures. One might reasonably conclude that they then believed the scriptures...I'm sure they would say they did. But Jesus said that their faith wasn't alive. They were dead and not brought to life. They didn't believe. Why not?

But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 5:42-47

They didn't have the love of God in them. They didn't have the Word of God in them. So they didn't believe Moses (their scriptures). Thus, they didn't believe Jesus. But Jesus already said they were not His sheep and that's why they didn't believe. Does that mean if they had just read Moses properly they would believe? What is it that is keeping them from reading the scriptures with understanding? They hadn't been quickened.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2 Corinthians 3:12-16

Jesus said the Jews wouldn't come to Him because they didn't believe the scriptures. But here Paul says they don't believe the scriptures because they don't come to Christ. And if being in Christ is necessary BEFORE one believes the scriptures (both Paul and Jesus agree on that!), how is it that one is to come to believe the scriptures? Are they argued into faith? Do they just have to decide to believe? As I said in my initial post on this thread, belief is a condition before it is a choice. It is based on some very basic condition of the heart - not on some intellectual choice to agree. So belief is based on moral ability (using AMR's words). Either a man is innately "able" to believe or he isn't. If he is, then the condition Jesus encounters in the Pharisees in John 5 shouldn't be so clear cut. Jesus should be doing what He can to convince them to believe. But He says they won't come to Him. At the bottom of it all is their identification. Their nature. Their very being. Not their choice. So it seems to me this belief requires spiritual life - it requires God to grant something. And if the vail is only taken away in Christ, doesn't that require someone to either be saved or elected before believing?

 

[john w]

Jesus taught the NEW LAW.

The old law says to get circumcised in the flesh.

Jesus circumcises us in the heart.

The old law says to observe special days.

Observing special days is no longer required because all those days were a shadow about Jesus and Jesus came and there are not shadows in light.

We observe Jesus all day every day.

The old law says to do various external washings before going to temple and give animal sacrifices.

Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God and he cleans us and we become the temple.

The old law says no eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth and hand for a hand and foot for a foot.

Jesus says no.

The old law says three divorces.

Jesus says no to that.

Jesus is our new High Priest.

For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also---Hebrews 7:12.

Again, Jesus is the change in the priesthood and the law WAS ALSO CHANGED.

Made up-I gave you chapter, and verse-He taught right out of the Law of God, Law of Moses, in Matthew-John, drunk, demonic one.


You: He kept a law, that He never taught.


Satanic.

And only sinners, such as yourself, need a High Priest, you stupid, biblical illiterate, who just spams verses. Believers have an advocate, not a High Priest.

 

[Nihilo]

No-another thread....to confirm the word, that they were speaking for the LORD God.No longer applicable, in this dispensation.

The Apostles decided how the Church should be administered, with their authority (2Co10:8KJV, "our authority," the authority of Paul and of the other Apostles).

You wicked Romanists/most other denominations, since you refuse to rightly divide the word of truth, the most significant division, being between the prophetic program, primarily dealing with the nation Israel, and the heathen nations, on earth, and the mystery program, focused primarily on the boc, in heavenly places, and thus follow the wrong apostle, Peter, and the Lord Jesus Christ in His earthly ministry................................................

Timothy was a bishop, and Paul wrote to him as a bishop, providing Apostolic counsel to a bishop, on how to oversee the Church. And our bishops are still here. They were created by the Apostles, who served as bishops, the first bishops, and Peter was their chief, and so Peter's successor/the bishop sitting in Peter's seat, along with the sacrament of Holy Orders/the imposition of hands, mentioned in Scripture, preserves the Apostolicity of the bishops, and of the Church. The Church is Apostolic.

 

[john w]

The law was not changed. The law was abolished, Ephesians 2:15.

Christians don't live according to rules or laws. Christians live by the Spirit of Christ, Romans 8:2.

The law was not abolished-you misinterpreted that, Pate, as usual.


Romans 3:20 KJV

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.




Galatians 3:24-25 KJV

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


So, OK if I kill you, Pate? No law against it, right?

 

[john w]

The Apostles decided how the Church should be administered, with their authority (2Co10:8KJV, "our authority," the authority of Paul and of the other Apostles).
Timothy was a bishop, and Paul wrote to him as a bishop, providing Apostolic counsel to a bishop, on how to oversee the Church. And our bishops are still here. They were created by the Apostles, who served as bishops, the first bishops, and Peter was their chief, and so Peter's successor/the bishop sitting in Peter's seat, along with the sacrament of Holy Orders/the imposition of hands, mentioned in Scripture, preserves the Apostolicity of the bishops, and of the Church. The Church is Apostolic.

Nope-no such thing as apostolic succession. I am the church-fallible.


Post #19:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?106374-Sell-all-you-have/page2

 

[john w]

Tell us what you have to obey that God says. lol

Tell us why you can decide for others, what commands to obey, you demon.

Everything that Jesus says for me to do I do it....Jesus does not tell everyone to sell all they have.

 

[God's Truth]

Made up-I gave you chapter, and verse-He taught right out of the Law of God, Law of Moses, in Matthew-John, drunk, demonic one.


You: He kept a law, that He never taught.


Satanic.

And only sinners, such as yourself, need a High Priest, you stupid, biblical illiterate, who just spams verses. Believers have an advocate, not a High Priest.

Psalm 110:4
The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."

Hebrews 2:17
So He had to be made like His brothers in every way, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 3:1
Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, set your minds on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.

Hebrews 4:14
Therefore, since we have such a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess.

Hebrews 5:6
And in another passage God says: "You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."

Hebrews 7:8
In the case of the Levites, mortal men collect the tenth; but in the case of Melchizedek, it is affirmed that he lives on.

Hebrews 7:17
For it is testified: "You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."

1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to Him.

 

[God's Truth]

Tell us why you can decide for others, what commands to obey, you demon.

Tell us what you claim the Bible says we have to obey.

 

[john w]

Psalm 110:4
The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."

Hebrews 2:17
So He had to be made like His brothers in every way, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 3:1
Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, set your minds on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.

Hebrews 4:14
Therefore, since we have such a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess.

Hebrews 5:6
And in another passage God says: "You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."

Hebrews 7:8
In the case of the Levites, mortal men collect the tenth; but in the case of Melchizedek, it is affirmed that he lives on.

Hebrews 7:17
For it is testified: "You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek."

1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to Him.

Made up-I gave you chapter, and verse-He taught right out of the Law of God, Law of Moses, in Matthew-John, drunk, demonic one.


You:The Psalms,Hebrews, 1 Peter, are in Matthew-John.

Sober up, you biblical spammer.

 

[john w]

Tell us what you claim the Bible says we have to obey.

As I predicted-the demon will not address, her own assertion, that she can decide for others, what commands to obey.

 

[Nihilo]

Nope-no such thing as apostolic succession. I am the church-fallible.


Post #19:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?106374-Sell-all-you-have/page2

You disagree with all history, history recorded as early as within the Apostles' lifetimes. And with that vacuum you created, you provide nothing to fill it up, insisting that even though the Apostles themselves, Paul included, ordained bishops to oversee the Church, and even though Paul himself wrote three of his epistles to bishops, that there are no longer any valid bishops. Where, in the volume of the Book, did you get the idea that the bishops ordained by the Apostles themselves, suddenly lost their own authority, in teaching matters of faith, doctrine and morals, for the Church's edification (2Co10:8KJV), once the Apostles departed this earth bodily?

 

[john w]

You disagree with all history, history recorded as early as within the Apostles' lifetimes. And with that vacuum you created, you provide nothing to fill it up, insisting that even though the Apostles themselves, Paul included, ordained bishops to oversee the Church, and even though Paul himself wrote three of his epistles to bishops, that there are no longer any valid bishops. Where, in the volume of the Book, did you get the idea that the bishops ordained by the Apostles themselves, suddenly lost their own authority, in teaching matters of faith, doctrine and morals, for the Church's edification (2Co10:8KJV), once the Apostles departed this earth bodily?

Translated: Well, you are wrong....


Quite weighty.

I brilliantly picked you apart, connecting the dots, with scripture.


You, in contrast, think, "Well, sister/father/monsignor/Judas told me so, and I will be just fine."


Contrasts.

 

[john w]

Tell us what you claim the Bible says we have to obey.

So, you agree that not all of His commands are for everyone? Yes, or no?


Silencio-for 2 years.


We have. But you, in hypocrisy, cry "You are not obeying God/Jesus," and thus assert that only you have the right to decide what commands of God are to be obeyed.




So, others can make the same claim that "Jesus did not command everyone to (fill in the blank of whatever we want-not you)"?

No? You decide what commands others are to obey?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

AMR's early post defining his terms spells out in great detail how he sees things happening. You then take issue with the final statement which has faith as evidence of God's work in a man's life - you think it should be primary (there before anything else) and that a man must have it and exercise it before God will save Him. You quote (among other things) Paul's words to the Philippian jailer as support for your belief that faith is the cause of salvation :

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:30-31

So are you saying that Paul was in error where he made it plain that in order to have eternal life a person has to believe? Are you saying that Paul was in error when he wrote this?:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

Of course Mr. Religion never even attempted to answer these verses which contradict his ideas. You have said nothing which would make anyone think that it is not "believing" which results in salvation.

This speaks of a "cause" and "effect" relationship which proves that what is said here is in error:

Faith is evidence you are saved, it is not the cause of your salvation, for God alone is the cause.

Do you not see a cause and effect relationship at both Acts 16:30-31 and Romans 1:16? In both of those passages we can understand that the cause is "believing" and the effect is "salvation."

It amazes me that someone who claims to be an expert of the teaching found in the Scriptures can be so ignorant about how a person is saved.

 

[john w]

if the covenant of the law had ended with the coming of the Lord Jesus then why did He say this?:

"And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them" (Mt.8:2-4).​

The thing which ended at with the coming of John was the "dispensation" of the law and not the "covenant" of the law.

The Preterist punk has been shown, verse, after verse, of the Lord Jesus Christ teaching the law, and observing it, to perfection, to become qualified as the satisfactory sacrifice-propitiation, but "argues" that the Saviour kept a law, that He never taught, and "argues" that neither God the Father, or the Saviour, taught the law. Then, who did, according to Craigie? The Levites. And he misinterprets his one verse/trick pony verse of Luke 16:16 KJV.

Galatians 3:24 KJV Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


Craigie: The Lord Jesus Christ never taught the law, nor did God the Father, to bring the others to the Saviour, in Mt.-John, and Galatians above is a misprint, or the Levites taught Galatians 3:24 KJV, or the Saviour taught it, the law, "post cross," but not "pre-cross," but the "law was nailed to the cross," you see, uh.......You are all in denial.