ECT Mid Acts Dispensation salvation #1 salvation #2

[turbosixx]

I have already explained what that verses refers to in my first answer to you about the meaning of water baptism. Do you really think that Paul could wash away his sins?



It is not referred to as a confession of sins but the fact remains that there was a confession of sins when men were baptized with water:

"And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mk.1:5).​

For some reason you have this water baptism fixation to such an extent that you just deny what the Lord Jesus said here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, at John 5:24 the Lord is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.



Cornelius and his household did.

The verses you are using to justify belief only are before Jesus actually became our redeemer. John's baptism had no power. Here people heard the gospel accurately except for one thing, baptism. They received John's baptism. When Paul finds out they hadn't received the HS when they believed, what did he question? The gospel? Their belief? No, baptism. Then he baptized them again with Jesus' baptism that puts you into Christ and completes the conversion. Then he gives them the HS.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.



Was anyone added before Jesus' D,B & R? There sure were 3,000 added on Pentecost and thousands since. Why not thousands before?

 

[turbosixx]

Something or someone has got a hold on you because you refuse to believe the Lord's words at John 5:24.

I'm trying to stand for the truth and challenge what I understand as truth. People are explaining away the scriptures, just look at the "Christian" homosexual movement.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

You forgot to mention that they had received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized with water:

"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?" (Acts 10:45-47).​

That can only mean that they had received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized with water and that answers what you said earlier:

I know of no where in scripture where a convert received the HS through the word only without being water baptized.

Now you can just refuse to believe what is said at Acts 10:45-47 just like you do at John 3:16 and 5:24.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm trying to stand for the truth and challenge what I understand as truth. People are explaining away the scriptures, just look at the "Christian" homosexual movement.

Then explain your understanding about what I said in regard to the Lord's words at John 5:24. So far all you have done is ignore it.

 

[turbosixx]

You forgot to mention that they had received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized with water:

"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?" (Acts 10:45-47).​

That can only mean that they had received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized with water and that answers what you said earlier:



Now you can just refuse to believe what is said at Acts 10:45-47 just like you do at John 3:16 and 5:24.

This is a special situation. There is over one complete (long) chapter devoted to this conversion and it's mentioned in another.

Why did they still receive water? Maybe Peter believed what Jesus said? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[turbosixx]

Then explain your understanding about what I said in regard to the Lord's words at John 5:24. So far all you have done is ignore it.

I could explain it again but it's in post 84.

 

[turbosixx]

Then explain your understanding about what I said in regard to the Lord's words at John 5:24. So far all you have done is ignore it.

Also, what does it mean to believe? Mental understanding?

 

[turbosixx]

Then explain your understanding about what I said in regard to the Lord's words at John 5:24. So far all you have done is ignore it.

Ok, I've looked at this closer and I see what your saying. It is present tense. Then I have to ask. Are these men then saved?

Jn. 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God

To get a better understanding of a particular passage we need to see if they agree with other passages.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is a special situation.[/I]

There is nothing which even hints that this is a special situation. After all, we read the same thing here:

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life" (Jn.3:15).​

Ok, I've looked at this closer and I see what your saying. It is present tense. Then I have to ask. Are these men then saved?

Yes, the were saved the moment when they believed. There were passed from death unto eternal life and are given the assurance that they will not be judged in regard to their salvation:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

It means to believe with your heart and soul. After all, the Lord has given us an understanding of these things so there is absolutely no doubt in our minds:

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).​

Our faith stands in the power of God:

"That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God" (1 Cor.2:5).​

So what we believe comes in the power of God so when we believe it becomes evidence of things not seen:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).​

 

[way 2 go]

Ok, I've looked at this closer and I see what your saying. It is present tense. Then I have to ask. Are these men then saved?

Jn. 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God

To get a better understanding of a particular passage we need to see if they agree with other passages.

no water baptism now


Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.

 

[way 2 go]

Jn. 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God

Yes, the were saved the moment when they believed. There were passed from death unto eternal life and are given the assurance that they will not be judged in regard to their salvation:

:noway:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

:noway:

Of course you just refuse to believe what the Lord Jesus said here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"In most cases the present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. This corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before doing any "works" then those works contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.

 

[way 2 go]

Of course you just refuse to believe what the Lord Jesus said here:

I don't believe you

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"In most cases the present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. This corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

:blabla:

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occurring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before doing any "works" then those works contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.

WRONG

Mat 10:32 Then everyone who shall confess Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in Heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in Heaven.

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.

i am amazed you draw the line at demons

why not go all the way ? demons believe

Jas_2:19 You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't believe you

WRONG

No, it is the Scriptures that you don't believe. Why should anyone think that the Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works with the following verse in view:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

Paul made it plain that the Jews who lived under the law were saved in the exact way as the Gentiles:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

The Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith. And if it is of works then it cannot be said that their salvation is according to the principle of grace:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

why not go all the way ? demons believe

Jas_2:19 You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.

You overlook the most telling verse in James which shows how the Jews were saved:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).

Nothing is said there about works being necessary for salvation.

 

[turbosixx]

There is nothing which even hints that this is a special situation. After all, we read the same thing here:

If this is the norm and not special, show me another instance where people received the HS directly from God, other than the apostles.

 

[turbosixx]

no water baptism now


Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.

Please show me when it went away and the sinners prayer took over. This is what I read in the bible.

Jesus instructed it.
Apostles taught it.
The converts did it.

Sinners prayer:
Nada

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If this is the norm and not special, show me another instance where people received the HS directly from God, other than the apostles.

I have already shown you that Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit before being baptized with water and what I said here went unanswered:

Cornelius and his family had received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized with water:

"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?" (Acts 10:45-47).​

That can only mean that they had received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized with water and that answers what you said earlier:

I know of no where in scripture where a convert received the HS through the word only without being water baptized.

Now you can just refuse to believe what is said at Acts 10:45-47 just like you do at John 3:16 and 5:24.

 

[turbosixx]

I have already shown you that Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit before being baptized with water and what I said here went unanswered:

Cornelius and his family had received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized with water:

"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?" (Acts 10:45-47).​

That can only mean that they had received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized with water and that answers what you said earlier:



Now you can just refuse to believe what is said at Acts 10:45-47 just like you do at John 3:16 and 5:24.

WEAK. You claim that baptism of the HS is how we are added to Christ, yet you can't show me a single instance other than Cornelius. I'm afraid you are fooling yourself.

I can show you multiple instances where converts were water baptized as Jesus instructed, even after receiving the HS, being water baptized incorrectly and in the so called "new" dispensation.

The verses in John were before Jesus d,b & r which began the Christian dispensation where by the name of Jesus we are saved and put power in water baptism. Matt. 28 "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

When Jesus sent out the 12 and 70, were people being added to the body? Did they preach the forgiveness of sins? Before Jesus ascended to Heaven he told the apostles. 47and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I can show you multiple instances where converts were water baptized as Jesus instructed, even after receiving the HS, being water baptized incorrectly and in the so called "new" dispensation.

Yes, water baptized after they were saved. Paul and those with him answered this question in the following way:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

As I proved earlier, no one could be baptized with water until they believe. So those who believed what Paul told them were saved when the believed. And then they were baptized with water.

According to your ideas Paul was wrong when he answered that way because he didn't answer, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ AND be baptized with water, and thou shalt be saved."

I will believe the answer Paul gave and it is your business if you want to deny what he said.

 

[HisServant]

Yes, water baptized after they were saved. Paul and those with him answered this question in the following way:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

As I proved earlier, no one could be baptized with water until they believe. So those who believed what Paul told them were saved when the believed. And then they were baptized with water.

According to your ideas Paul was wrong when he answered that way because he didn't answer, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ AND be baptized with water, and thou shalt be saved."

I will believe the answer Paul gave and it is your business if you want to deny what he said.

Baptism with water is assumed and is still practiced in error by most of Christianity today.

Christ and John the Baptist told us about the only baptism that matters... and it isn't done by human hands.

So why are we so bull headed that we continue to practice this tradition that is no longer needed.... are we still contaminated by Roman Catholicism?