ECT Mid Acts Dispensation salvation #1 salvation #2

[turbosixx]

Yes, water baptized after they were saved. Paul and those with him answered this question in the following way:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

As I proved earlier, no one could be baptized with water until they believe. So those who believed what Paul told them were saved when the believed. And then they were baptized with water.

I'm not questioning believers being baptized. I agree, only believers can be baptized into Christ.

According to your ideas Paul was wrong when he answered that way because he didn't answer, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ AND be baptized with water, and thou shalt be saved."

I will believe the answer Paul gave and it is your business if you want to deny what he said.

Really? With that reasoning we could prove belief is not needed to become a Christian. Belief is not mentioned anywhere in this sermon or conversion of these thousands.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[turbosixx]

Yes, water baptized after they were saved. Paul and those with him answered this question in the following way:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

As I proved earlier, no one could be baptized with water until they believe. So those who believed what Paul told them were saved when the believed. And then they were baptized with water.

I'm not questioning believers being baptized. Why would a non-believer want to be baptized. I agree, only believers are baptized into Christ.

According to your ideas Paul was wrong when he answered that way because he didn't answer, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ AND be baptized with water, and thou shalt be saved."

I will believe the answer Paul gave and it is your business if you want to deny what he said.

Really? With that reasoning we could prove belief is not needed to become a Christian. Belief is not mentioned anywhere in this sermon or conversion of these thousands.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Was Peter wrong?

 

[turbosixx]

Baptism with water is assumed and is still practiced in error by most of Christianity today.

Christ and John the Baptist told us about the only baptism that matters... and it isn't done by human hands.

So why are we so bull headed that we continue to practice this tradition that is no longer needed.... are we still contaminated by Roman Catholicism?

Tell me about this only baptism that matters.

 

[way 2 go]

Please show me when it went away and the sinners prayer took over. This is what I read in the bible.

Jesus instructed it.
Apostles taught it.
The converts did it.

Sinners prayer:
Nada

no water baptism for gentiles

Act 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:
Act 15:29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I'm not questioning believers being baptized. I agree, only believers can be baptized into Christ.

So according to Paul a person is saved by faith and this happens before anyone is baptized with water:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

With that reasoning we could prove belief is not needed to become a Christian. Belief is not mentioned anywhere in this sermon or conversion of these thousands.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

As I said before, these people who were baptized with water already had believed. The had believed what Peter said here in the verse prior to the ones you just quoted"

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).​

This forgiveness of sins spoken of at verse 38 is not in regard to salvation. Instead it is for those already saved and it is in regard to being in fellowship with the Lord Jesus:

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:6-9).​

We can see that the rite of baptism was indeed a confession sins:

"And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mk.1:5).​

Also, those who were baptized with water received a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit. And here is that gift:

"...no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit. There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines" (1 Cor.12:3-4, 8-11).​

 

[turbosixx]

So according to Paul a person is saved by faith and this happens before anyone is baptized with water:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

As I said before, these people who were baptized with water already had believed. The had believed what Peter said here in the verse prior to the ones you just quoted"

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).​

This forgiveness of sins spoken of at verse 38 is not in regard to salvation. Instead it is for those already saved and it is in regard to being in fellowship with the Lord Jesus:

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:6-9).​

We can see that the rite of baptism was indeed a confession sins:

"And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mk.1:5).​

Also, those who were baptized with water received a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit. And here is that gift:

"...no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit. There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines" (1 Cor.12:3-4, 8-11).​

Ok, I think we have gone in circles enough and I appreciate your time in helping me to see it as you do. If you would like to continue, that is cool with me.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ok, I think we have gone in circles enough and I appreciate your time in helping me to see it as you do. If you would like to continue, that is cool with me.

OK, if it took both faith and submitting to the rite of water baptism to be saved then why would Paul just name faith?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

 

[turbosixx]

no water baptism for gentiles

Act 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:
Act 15:29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."

Try again,

First Gentile convert:
Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Another, the Jailer:
Acts 16:32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized.

There's more. Any conversion with any detail has baptism, just as Jesus instructed, just as the Apostle taught and did.

 

[turbosixx]

OK, if it took both faith and submitting to the rite of water baptism to be saved then why would Paul just name faith?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Because that is the first step. You have to believe the gospel, if you don't believe it you won't need to be baptized. Paul told them this before they hear the first word of the gospel.
31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him Once they believed, then immediately he and all his household were baptized. Last thing done in the conversion.

The verses you are using in John to show how people become a Christian is before anyone could become a Christian. After Jesus becomes Lord and Christ, that is when he says "whoever believes and has been baptized" (Past Tense) or make disciples "baptizing" them.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because that is the first step. You have to believe the gospel, if you don't believe it you won't need to be baptized. Paul told them this before they hear the first word of the gospel.
31They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him Once they believed, then immediately he and all his household were baptized. Last thing done in the conversion.

If it takes more than one step to be saved then no one receives salvation until the second step is completed. However, Paul believed that it only took one step and that one step is believing:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

You also reject these words which likewise proves that receiving salvation is not a two step process"

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

You also reject the words of the Lord Jesus who makes it plain that salvation is not a two step progress:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

You also refuse to believe Peter where he makes it plain that salvation is not a two step process"

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God... And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

You also refuse to believe James where he makes it plain that salvation is not a two step process:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

turbosixx, at this point I think that I am just wasting my time with you. If you will not believe any of those verses then you won't believe anything which I have to say. So I am out of here. It's been a pleasure.

 

[turbosixx]

If it takes more than one step to be saved then no one receives salvation until the second step is completed. However, Paul believed that it only took one step and that one step is believing:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

You also reject these words which likewise proves that receiving salvation is not a two step process"

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

You also reject the words of the Lord Jesus who makes it plain that salvation is not a two step progress:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

You also refuse to believe Peter where he makes it plain that salvation is not a two step process"

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God... And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

You also refuse to believe James where he makes it plain that salvation is not a two step process:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

turbosixx, at this point I think that I am just wasting my time with you. If you will not believe any of those verses then you won't believe anything which I have to say. So I am out of here. It's been a pleasure.

I believe all the verses to be true we just need to understand how they all work together.

I've enjoyed it as well and I appreciate your time.

 

[glorydaz]

Then I have to ask. Are these men then saved?

Jn. 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God

Yes, the were saved the moment when they believed. There were passed from death unto eternal life and are given the assurance that they will not be judged in regard to their salvation:

:noway:

I can understand your look of dismay, way 2 go. Those who love the praise of men do not have saving faith (that's what the idea of confessing Him means). We see our Lord saw into the hearts of others who "believed in His name", and knew their faith was not the saving kind.

John 2:23-25
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.​

I would also like you to elaborate, if you would, on what you were telling Jerry about John 3:16. He didn't listen (no surprise), but I think you did a good job and would love it if you shared it once again.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I would also like you to elaborate, if you would, on what you were telling Jerry about John 3:16. He didn't listen (no surprise), but I think you did a good job and would love it if you shared it once again.

Why don't you tell us your interpretation of the meaning of John 3:16?:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

For anyone who is actually interested in the truth of how the Jews who lived under the Law were saved then consider the following words of the Lord and Savior spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, the Lord Jesus at John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life.

Therefore, you make a gigantic blunder when you say that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works. They were saved the moment when they believed!

You put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Lord Jesus said at John 5:24.

Now you have another verse from which you can run and hide.

 

[way 2 go]

I can understand your look of dismay, way 2 go. Those who love the praise of men do not have saving faith (that's what the idea of confessing Him means). We see our Lord saw into the hearts of others who "believed in His name", and knew their faith was not the saving kind.

John 2:23-25
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.​

I would also like you to elaborate, if you would, on what you were telling Jerry about John 3:16. He didn't listen (no surprise), but I think you did a good job and would love it if you shared it once again.

as everyone knows jerry applies this to EVERYONE even if God says no
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.



Eze 18:24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

Saul was under the law and he never attained salvation

1Sa 15:11 "I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments."

1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul,

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?

 

[glorydaz]

he is explaining what he has to do so people can be saved

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

as everyone knows jerry applies this to EVERYONE even if God says no
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.



Eze 18:24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

Saul was under the law and he never attained salvation

1Sa 15:11 "I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments."

1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul,

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?

John 3:14-17 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.​

And this is what I think Jerry is missing by taking that one verse out of context. He sees a tree but doesn't see the forest. I get what you're saying, and this thread is worth reading if one can manage to keep from being distracted by Jerry's over bearing attitude.

 

[oatmeal]

baptism was required
Mar 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

now its one baptism of the spirit
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Could you point out where the word "water" appears in those verses?

 

[Interplanner]

Christ's work alone saves. That is what faith recieves. it doesn't matter how that faith looks as long as it embraces Christ's work alone.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And this is what I think Jerry is missing by taking that one verse out of context. He sees a tree but doesn't see the forest. I get what you're saying, and this thread is worth reading if one can manage to keep from being distracted by Jerry's over bearing attitude.​

Then give us your interpretation of the meaning of John 3:16 and you can use the context all you want to support your interpretation.

Of course you have no intention of doing that because the only reason for your post was to put into question my character!

As usual, when you cannot answer the message, you attack the messenger!​

 

[way 2 go]

Could you point out where the word "water" appears in those verses?

deductive reasoning

Mar 16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

no baptism of the holy spirit yet ,therefore water

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call—
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

one Spirit one baptism of the spirit

 

[way 2 go]

Then give us your interpretation of the meaning of John 3:16 and you can use the context all you want to support your interpretation.

Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.