ECT Mid Acts Dispensation salvation #1 salvation #2

[Jerry Shugart]

Let's work with this. I'm not aware of anyone being baptized by the HS without being water baptized in this "new" dispensation, could you please show me scripture?

As I said, in this dispensation there is only one baptism:

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph.4:4-6).​

Here is that one baptism:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Water baptism no longer plays a part in the Lord's program for today.

 

[turbosixx]

As I said, in this dispensation there is only one baptism:

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph.4:4-6).​

Here is that one baptism:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Water baptism no longer plays a part in the Lord's program for today.

Here is my problem with that. That means when we are baptized in water the spirit seals us placing us into Christ. Do we put ourselves into the body? "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."

Jesus said it takes water and the spirit. Jn. 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Then he teaches the apostles how to make disciples by baptizing them. Matt. 28:19. That is exactly what they do, we see Christian converts being baptized. When did it change?

Even Gentiles converted by Paul in this supposedly "new" dispensation were baptized. Acts 16:33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. Last thing done adding the convert to the body completing the conversion process. Just as Jesus himself instructed.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus said it takes water and the spirit. Jn. 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You misunderstand what the Lord Jesus said here:

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" (Jn.3:5-8).​

First of all your idea that this in referring to water baptism contradicts the teaching that one must first believe before he can be baptized with water, and as soon as he believes he already has everlasting life (Jn.3:16).

We can see that the word "water" can be referring to the "word," as illustrated by the following verse:

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word" (Eph.5:26).​

We are "born again" when we believe the gospel:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Peter 1:23,25).​

The gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance" (1 Thess.1:5).​

So when the Lord speaks of being born of water and of Spirit He is using figurative language to speak of the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Now it is your turn to explain your view about what I said, that before a person could be baptized with water he had to first believe, and by the time he believed he already possessed everlasting life (Jn.3:16). So water baptism contributed nothing to the salvation of those who were baptized with water.

 

[turbosixx]

We can see that the word "water" can be referring to the "word," as illustrated by the following verse:

I agree water can be used to describe the word so let's look at scriptures for evidence to see if the word was the water used in the conversion of Christians.

Here the word pierced their hearts but they still were water baptized then received the HS.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Why would the eunuch ask about water if the word is the water?
36 "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?".... and he baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away;


I could go on and on. All conversions in scripture with any detail end in water baptism. Just as Jesus said, make disciples baptizing them.

 

[turbosixx]

First of all your idea that this in referring to water baptism contradicts the teaching that one must first believe before he can be baptized with water, and as soon as he believes he already has everlasting life (Jn.3:16).

I agree only believers can be baptized into Christ. I don't believe once you believe you are saved.

Paul still had his sins until he was baptized
Acts 22:16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

Again, the last thing he did in his conversion.

 

[turbosixx]

So when the Lord speaks of being born of water and of Spirit He is using figurative language to speak of the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit.

I know of no where in scripture where a convert received the HS through the word only without being water baptized.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't believe once you believe you are saved.

Then what do you make of these words?:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

What is said there is either true or it is not true. By your reasoning what is said is not true.

And why would the Lord Jesus say that His words are spirit and life if no one is saved until they are baptized with water?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Again, what the Lord Jesus said there is either true or it is false. According to your ideas it is false because no one who is dead in sin receives life until he is baptized with water. So according to your view the Lord Jesus' words are not life.

I know of no where in scripture where a convert received the HS through the word only without being water baptized.

Cornelius and his household did.

 

[turbosixx]

Then what do you make of these words:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

What is said there is either true or it is not true. By your reasoning what is said is not true.

It is absolutely true. It doesn't say all you have to do is believe.

When one believes they have a choice to make.

16He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

These men believed, what did they choose?

Jn. 12:42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

All saved are believers, not all believers are saved. Satan and his angels believe.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It is absolutely true. It doesn't say all you have to do is believe.

What is said is either true or it is not. You say that it is not true because believing does not result in everlasting life:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

According to your view believing does not result in everlasting life. If you think that you are actually believing what is said at John 3:16 then you are sadly mistaken.

The Lord Jesus says the same thing here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, at John 5:24 the Lord is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.

 

[turbosixx]

What is said is either true or it is not. You say that it is not true because believing does not result in everlasting life:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

According to your view believing does not result in everlasting life. If you think that you are actually believing what is said at John 3:16 then you are sadly mistaken.

The Lord Jesus says the same thing here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, at John 5:24 the Lord is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.

Then explain why Paul still had sin before he was baptized washing them away?

16Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

 

[way 2 go]

I could go on and on. All conversions in scripture with any detail end in water baptism. Just as Jesus said, make disciples baptizing them.

how about all 12 disciples
can you show each of their water baptisms ?
chapter & verse ?

 

[turbosixx]

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

Please use Greek tense to explain this verse:
16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

 

[turbosixx]

how about all 12 disciples
can you show each of their water baptisms ?
chapter & verse ?

Their conversion is not detailed in scripture. I only know what I read, let's stick to what's written. What did Jesus teach them, what did they teach and what did the converts do?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Then explain why Paul still had sin before he was baptized washing them away?

16Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

One forgiveness of sins is in regard to salvation and here Peter speaks about that forgiveness:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

there is another forgiveness of sins that is in regard to being in fellowship with the Lord:

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:6-9).​

The water baptism was a confession of sins and had to do with "fellowship" and not "salvation":

"And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mk.1:5).​

 

[turbosixx]

One forgiveness of sins is in regard to salvation and here Peter speaks about that forgiveness:

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43).​

there is another forgiveness of sins that is in regard to being in fellowship with the Lord:

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:6-9).​

The water baptism was a confession of sins and had to do with "fellowship" and not "salvation":

"And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mk.1:5).​

That's not what the scripture says, it clearly says "wash away you sins" apolouó: to wash off, wash away

According to you, he should have no sins to wash off or confess.

Baptism does a lot of things but I see no where in scripture that baptism is referred to as a confession of sins.

- 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death
- by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism,
-27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
-21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's not what the scripture says, it clearly says "wash away you sins" apolouó: to wash off, wash away

According to you, he should have no sins to wash off or confess.

I have already explained what that verses refers to in my first answer to you about the meaning of water baptism. Do you really think that Paul could wash away his sins?

Baptism does a lot of things but I see no where in scripture that baptism is referred to as a confession of sins.

It is not referred to as a confession of sins but the fact remains that there was a confession of sins when men were baptized with water:

"And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mk.1:5).​

For some reason you have this water baptism fixation to such an extent that you just deny what the Lord Jesus said here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, at John 5:24 the Lord is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.

I know of no where in scripture where a convert received the HS through the word only without being water baptized.

Cornelius and his household did.

 

[turbosixx]

Cornelius and his household did.

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

 

[turbosixx]

I have already explained what that verses refers to in my first answer to you about the meaning of water baptism. Do you really think that Paul could wash away his sins?



It is not referred to as a confession of sins but the fact remains that there was a confession of sins when men were baptized with water:

"And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mk.1:5).​

For some reason you have this water baptism fixation to such an extent that you just deny what the Lord Jesus said here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, at John 5:24 the Lord is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.



Cornelius and his household did.

Yes I am fixated because it doesn't take much for Satan to get a hold.

God said:
“you will certainly die.”
Satan said:
“You will not certainly die,”

God said:
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,
Man says:
Whoevery believes will be saved and then it would be a good idea to be baptized.

God said:
so faith without deeds is dead.
Man says:
Faith alone saves

God said:
baptism that now saves you
Man says:
Baptism does not save you

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes I am fixated because it doesn't take much for Satan to get a hold.

Something or someone has got a hold on you because you refuse to believe the Lord's words at John 5:24.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I have already explained what that verses refers to in my first answer to you about the meaning of water baptism. Do you really think that Paul could wash away his sins?



It is not referred to as a confession of sins but the fact remains that there was a confession of sins when men were baptized with water:

"And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins" (Mk.1:5).​

For some reason you have this water baptism fixation to such an extent that you just deny what the Lord Jesus said here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, at John 5:24 the Lord is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Since a believer receives eternal life before a drop of water ever touches him then we can know that submitting to the rite of water baptism contributes nothing to anyone's salvation.



Cornelius and his household did.

Israel went through two rivers , not one.

The samarians did not receive the Holy Spirit when they first believed.

Johns baptism was a red sea crossing using the waters of the Jordan.

Those who were so baptized then went on to hear the Lord as did they in the wilderness.

Many perished in the wilderness,(but not all) but the generation who crossed Jordan were faithful to the end (after some major hiccups.)

LA