ECT Mid Acts Dispensation salvation #1 salvation #2

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't understand, how is there is another dispensation after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Please explain.

Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

No one before Paul preached the gospel of grace, that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

So the present dispensation of grace could not have possibly had its beginning until Paul was converted and began to preach the gospel of the grace of God.

Jesus said preach the gospel to every nation and every creature. Isn't that everyone, not just the Jews?

Yes, but when they were first persecuted and went every where they went to only the Jews. And the Apostles before Paul never went to every nation and every creature. Instead, they remained in Jerusalem.

And they had a good reason for not going. They knew that the OT prophecies revealed that at the time when the Gentiles would be brought is when Israel will be endowed with splendor:

"Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:5).​

That is why they did not immediatey go to the Gentiles. They were waiting for corporate Israel to come to the knowledge that the Lord Jesus was their Messiah so that this could be fulfilled:

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Mt.5:4-6).​

Even though Israel remained obstinate the Lord started a new program not dependent on national Israel and therefore He chose Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. And He was given the commission to preach the gospel of grace to the Gentiles.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

it says what Jesus has to do so people believing in him
him may have eternal life not what people believing in him have to do

The words are clear. Whoever believes has everlasting life:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"(Jn.3:16).​

The Jews who lived under the Law and believed could not be excluded from the category "whoever." The werev saved in exactly the same way we are:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

If the Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works then it cannot be said that they are saved by grace. Because if it is of works then it is not of grace.

All men, both Jews and Gentiles, were saved by grace through faith apart from works.

 

[Danoh]

Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

No one before Paul preached the gospel of grace, that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

So the present dispensation of grace could not have possibly had its beginning until Paul was converted and began to preach the gospel of the grace of God.



Yes, but when they were first persecuted and went every where they went to only the Jews. And the Apostles before Paul never went to every nation and every creature. Instead, they remained in Jerusalem.

And they had a good reason for not going. They knew that the OT prophecies revealed that at the time when the Gentiles would be brought is when Israel will be endowed with splendor:

"Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor" (Isa.55:5).​

That is why they did not immediatey go to the Gentiles. They were waiting for corporate Israel to come to the knowledge that the Lord Jesus was their Messiah so that this could be fulfilled:

"Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Mt.5:4-6).​

Even though Israel remained obstinate the Lord started a new program not dependent on national Israel and therefore He chose Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. And He was given the commission to preach the gospel of grace to the Gentiles.

Ah, yes; the error that Paul was some sort of God's last minute Plan B.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Ah, yes; the error that Paul was some sort of God's last minute Plan B.

Talk is cheap. Where is your evidence that anything which I said is in error?

 

[turbosixx]

No one before Paul preached the gospel of grace, that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

Paul was not the first to preach to the Gentiles the forgiveness of sins through believing in Christ. Acts10:43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also."

Even though it's not called grace, is this not grace?

How is the gospel different whether your a Jew or Gentile?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul was not the first to preach to the Gentiles the forgiveness of sins through believing in Christ.

I never said that he did. He was the first to preach the "purpose" of the Lord's death upon the Cross which is first found in the gospel of grace, that the believer is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

Even though it's not called grace, is this not grace?

Receiving grace is not the same thing as proclaiming the source of that grace in regard to salvation, that the believer is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

How is the gospel different whether your a Jew or Gentile?

The "good news" or gospel that was preached to the Jews during the Acts period is the truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And those who believed that were given life when the were born of God and therefore saved (Jn.20:31, 1 Jn.5:1-5).

The "good news" or gospel preached to the Gentiles during the Acts period is the truth that Christ died for our sins that those who believe are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." And those who believe the truth that Christ died for our sins are saved (1 Cor.15:1-3).

 

[turbosixx]

I never said that he did. He was the first to preach the "purpose" of the Lord's death upon the Cross which is first found in the gospel of grace, that the believer is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

He had to explain the purpose to Gentiles because the Jew knew the purpose of the Messiah.

Receiving grace is not the same thing as proclaiming the source of that grace in regard to salvation, that the believer is "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:24).

The Jews knew the source, they were looking for the Messiah.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-this Jesus whom you crucified."
.

The "good news" or gospel that was preached to the Jews during the Acts period is the truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And those who believed that were given life when the were born of God and therefore saved (Jn.20:31, 1 Jn.5:1-5).

The "good news" or gospel preached to the Gentiles during the Acts period is the truth that Christ died for our sins that those who believe are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." And those who believe the truth that Christ died for our sins are saved (1 Cor.15:1-3).

Which "good news" do you think Paul used when preaching to Jews?
1 Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews;

The different "good news" as you see it, to me it's the same good news Jesus' D,B &R, doesn't change the fact that the same thing is being "dispensed". The forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ.

Both Jews and Gentiles did the same thing upon belief just as Jesus instructed. Believe + baptism = saved.

Jews:
Acts 18:8 Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.

Gentiles:
Acts 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

He had to explain the purpose to Gentiles because the Jew knew the purpose of the Messiah.

Really? The Apostles did not even know that the Lord Jesus was to resurrected until it happened (Jn.20:9).

The Jews knew the source, they were looking for the Messiah.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-this Jesus whom you crucified."
.

Yes, but the books of Acts will be searched in vain for any event where the Jews were told the purpose of the Cross, that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

Instead what was preached to them concerned the identity of the Lord Jesus. And the verse which you just quoted is proof of that.

Which "good news" do you think Paul used when preaching to Jews?
1 Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews;

I already told you what was preached to the Jews and here is what Paul preached to them:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

The different "good news" as you see it, to me it's the same good news Jesus' D,B &R, doesn't change the fact that the same thing is being "dispensed". The forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ.

That is ridiculous! The good news that Christ died for our sins is not the same good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

Just because both groups were baptized with water does not change the fact that the good news that Christ died for our sins is not the same good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

 

[turbosixx]

Really? The Apostles did not even know that the Lord Jesus was to resurrected until it happened (Jn.20:9).



Yes, but the books of Acts will be searched in vain for any event where the Jews were told the purpose of the Cross, that believers are "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

Instead what was preached to them concerned the identity of the Lord Jesus. And the verse which you just quoted is proof of that.



I already told you what was preached to the Jews and here is what Paul preached to them:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God...proving that this is the very Christ" (Acts 9:20,22).​

That is ridiculous! The good news that Christ died for our sins is not the same good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

Just because both groups were baptized with water does not change the fact that the good news that Christ died for our sins is not the same good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God!

It's equally ridiculous from where I'm sitting. Both groups did the exact same thing upon believing the gospel and both groups received the exact same thing, the forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ the son of God.

There is only the Christian dispensation.
Heb. 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Is there more than one thing being dispensed?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You are stuck in the past dispensation. In this dispensation there is but "one" baptism (Eph.4:5) and this is it:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

You're right, the True Believer is baptized into the Body of Christ by
the Holy Spirit. There is NO necessity for water baptism today.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

In the books of Matthew through John, Christ ONLY came to the
'lost sheep of the House of Israel.' And, at that time, water baptism
was necessary. Now, we live in the "Dispensation of Grace" and
one is ONLY baptized, by the Holy Spirit, into the Body of Christ.
(By the Holy Spirit alone!)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Is there more than one thing being dispensed?

What do you think is being dispensed?

And let me make sure I understand you correctly.

You say that the good news that Christ died for our sins is the same good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

Is that right?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

In the books of Matthew through John, Christ ONLY came to the
'lost sheep of the House of Israel.' And, at that time, water baptism
was necessary. Now, we live in the "Dispensation of Grace" and
one is ONLY baptized, by the Holy Spirit, into the Body of Christ.
(By the Holy Spirit alone!)

So according to you this applies to the Jews?:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

Do you believe that the Jews who lived under the law received everlasting life by their faith apart from works?

 

[turbosixx]

What do you think is being dispensed?

And let me make sure I understand you correctly.

You say that the good news that Christ died for our sins is the same good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?

Is that right?

Salvation is being dispensed. The forgiveness of sins through the blood of Jesus. He is the author of everyone's salvation. He is the only name in which man can be saved.


Yes, the good news is the same.
Did the son of God die for "all peoples" sins?
Was Jesus who died for "all peoples" sins, the son of God?

Different audiences will understand different approaches better but the gospel is the same. One thing that comes to mind is Paul circumcising Timothy. Paul knows that circumcision is not required according to the gospel, but because of his audience he did it. He refused to circumcise Titus because it would not help to reach a different audience.

The approaches aren't in conflict but are complimentary. The Jews were looking for something, the Gentiles were not, so yes, the approach mightl be a little different but what matters is that Jesus is being preached.

And they spoke the word of the Lord to him
beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him
and began proclaiming Christ to them


I'm afraid your making it more complicated than it is. On what grade level is the bible written?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Salvation is being dispensed.

WRONG!

The English word "dispensation" is translated from the Greek word oikonomia, and that word means "the management of a householdor of household affairs; specifically the management, oversight, administration, of other’s property; the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship" (Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon).

A stewardship is what is dispensed by the Lord, and here Paul speaks of that stewardship which the Lord gave Him:

"...of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

The Lord gave or dispensed a stewardship to Paul and that stewardship responsibility was to be a minister.

Different audiences will understand different approaches better but the gospel is the same.

Unless you stop putting what some men say about the Scriptures above what the Scriptures actually say you will never come to the knowledge of the truth.

The good news that Christ died for our sins is not the same good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

As long as you continue to assert that they are then you will continue to look foolish.

Is that your goal?

 

[turbosixx]

WRONG!

The English word "dispensation" is translated from the Greek word oikonomia, and that word means "the management of a householdor of household affairs; specifically the management, oversight, administration, of other’s property; the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship" (Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon).

A stewardship is what is dispensed by the Lord, and here Paul speaks of that stewardship which the Lord gave Him:

"...of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

The Lord gave or dispensed a stewardship to Paul and that stewardship responsibility was to be a minister.



Unless you stop putting what some men say about the Scriptures above what the Scriptures actually say you will never come to the knowledge of the truth.

The good news that Christ died for our sins is not the same good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

As long as you continue to assert that they are then you will continue to look foolish.

Is that your goal?

If you think I'm foolish that is perfectly fine with me. There is one gospel not two.

So Christ is divided? Depending on who is steward over you? Jews follow Peter and Gentiles follow Paul?

1 Cor. 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." 13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If you think I'm foolish that is perfectly fine with me. There is one gospel not two.

I didn't say that you are foolish. I said that as long as you continue to assert that the good news that Christ died for our sins is the same good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, you will continue to look foolish.

So Christ is divided? Depending on who is steward over you? Jews follow Peter and Gentiles follow Paul?

That doesn't prove that the good news that Christ died for our sins is the same good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Once the people believed their respective gospels then they became members of the Body of Christ and there is no division there.

There is one gospel not two

According to your ideas a person can be saved by believing only a part of the gospel.

 

[turbosixx]

I didn't say that you are foolish. I said that as long as you continue to assert that the good news that Christ died for our sins is the same good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, you will continue to look foolish.



That doesn't prove that the good news that Christ died for our sins is the same good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Once the people believed their respective gospels then they became members of the Body of Christ and there is no division there.



According to your ideas a person can be saved by believing only a part of the gospel.

I'm used to looking foolish.

I think we have covered that. I'm curious what is your understanding of the purpose of baptism?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I think we have covered that. I'm curious what is your understanding of the purpose of baptism?

This verse gives us a clue:

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).​

The meaning is summed up in the following way: "Arise and be baptized, and turn away from your evil courses, calling on His name."

Those being baptized with water were pledging to change their lives for the better. And this verse is speaking about that:

"And such were some of you: but ye washed yourselves, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God " (1 Cor.6:11; RV, Marginal Note).​

And this is alo referring to the same thing:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God " (2 Cor.7:1).​

 

[Danoh]

So according to you this applies to the Jews?:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

Do you believe that the Jews who lived under the law received everlasting life by their faith apart from works?

Turbosixx, note that he baited you under the guise of supposedly wanting to understand where you were coming from - his actual agenda - proving how smart he is with his "WRONG!"

He does this even within his own camp.

Coercion through baiting is his stock in trade.