ECT Mid Acts Dispensation salvation #1 salvation #2

[Danoh]

WRONG!

The English word "dispensation" is translated from the Greek word oikonomia, and that word means "the management of a householdor of household affairs; specifically the management, oversight, administration, of other’s property; the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship" (Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon).

A stewardship is what is dispensed by the Lord, and here Paul speaks of that stewardship which the Lord gave Him:

"...of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

The Lord gave or dispensed a stewardship to Paul and that stewardship responsibility was to be a minister.



Unless you stop putting what some men say about the Scriptures above what the Scriptures actually say you will never come to the knowledge of the truth.

The good news that Christ died for our sins is not the same good news that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

As long as you continue to assert that they are then you will continue to look foolish.

Is that your goal?

Turbosixx, note that he baited you under the guise of supposedly wanting to understand where you were coming from - his actual agenda - proving how smart he is with his "WRONG!"

He does this even within his own camp.

Coercion through baiting is his stock in trade.

 

[Danoh]

This verse gives us a clue:

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).​

The meaning is summed up in the following way: "Arise and be baptized, and turn away from your evil courses, calling on His name."

Those being baptized with water were pledging to change their lives for the better. And this verse is speaking about that:

"And such were some of you: but ye washed yourselves, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God " (1 Cor.6:11; RV, Marginal Note).​

And this is alo referring to the same thing:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God " (2 Cor.7:1).​

Here it is - his need to prove he alone has all answers.

Turbosixx, note that he baited you under the guise of supposedly wanting to understand where you were coming from - his actual agenda - proving how smart he is with his "WRONG!"

He does this even within his own camp.

Coercion through baiting is his stock in trade.

There, now he can't go back and change what he said, like he did with another poster - whom he slandered and never apologized to.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

So according to you this applies to the Jews?:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

Do you believe that the Jews who lived under the law received everlasting life by their faith apart from works?

While the Apostles walked the earth, Peter and the rest of his
fellow Apostles preached the, Kingdom Message to the
Jews as did Christ Himself. When the "ascended Christ" met
Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus, Paul was subsequently
given the, "Grace Message" which was to be preached
to the gentiles. Henceforth, there were two messages being
preached while the Apostles lived.

The Kingdom Message was preached to the Jews, which
included "faith and works." That's why James 2:17 "Thus also
faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James was
speaking to members of the House of Israel, not to the gentiles.

Whereas, the Apostle Paul, preached; faith alone without works.

One must be able to "Rightly Divide" the word of God in order
to understand this differentiation. Otherwise, the conclusion
will create a, seeming contradiction, and utter confusion.

Today we live in the "Dispensation of Grace" and we abide by
Paul's Gospel, both Jew and gentile alike.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Kingdom Message was preached to the Jews, whichincluded "faith and works."

WRONG!

The following words of the Lord Jesus were addressed to the Jews who lived under the Law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Therefore, a believer receives eternal life before he does any works.

That's why James 2:17 "Thus also
faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James was
speaking to members of the House of Israel, not to the gentiles.

Here is what James says before that:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

You misunderstand the meaning of what is said about James 2:17 because you fail to understand that the subject being spoken of there is what a man can know about another man's faith:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:18).​

If a man does not see "works" from another man then that man's faith is non-existent or dead as far as he can see.

Whereas, the Apostle Paul, preached; faith alone without works.

Paul made it plain that the Jews who lived under the law were saved in the exact way as the Gentiles:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

The Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith. And if it is of works then it cannot be said that their salvation is according to the principle of grace:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Here it is - his need to prove he alone has all answers.

Turbosixx, note that he baited you under the guise of supposedly wanting to understand where you were coming from - his actual agenda - proving how smart he is with his "WRONG!"

Why are you even on this forum. You refuse to even attempt to answer verses that prove that your ideas are in error.

Instead, all you seem interested in doing is assassinating my character because I didn't agree with all your views.

Let this be a warning to anyone who would think of discussing anything with Danoh.

Instead, just ignore him.

 

[Danoh]

WRONG!

The following words of the Lord Jesus were addressed to the Jews who lived under the Law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."​

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. Therefore, a believer receives eternal life before he does any works.



Here is what James says before that:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

You misunderstand the meaning of what is said about James 2:17 because you fail to understand that the subject being spoken of there is what a man can know about another man's faith:

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (Jas.2:18).​

If a man does not see "works" from another man then that man's faith is non-existent or dead as far as he can see.



Paul made it plain that the Jews who lived under the law were saved in the exact way as the Gentiles:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

The Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith. And if it is of works then it cannot be said that their salvation is according to the principle of grace:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​

Lol, Grosnick, you have just made Jerry's day.

 

[turbosixx]

This verse gives us a clue:

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).​

The meaning is summed up in the following way: "Arise and be baptized, and turn away from your evil courses, calling on His name."

Those being baptized with water were pledging to change their lives for the better. And this verse is speaking about that:

"And such were some of you: but ye washed yourselves, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God " (1 Cor.6:11; RV, Marginal Note).​

And this is alo referring to the same thing:

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God " (2 Cor.7:1).​

Do agree with Romans?
Rom. 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do agree with Romans?
Rom. 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Being baptized into Christ is referring to being baptized into the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:27-28).​

 

[turbosixx]

Being baptized into Christ is referring to being baptized into the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Greek:

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:27-28).​

That's the way I understand it from what I read.

Gal. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

That excludes everyone that has not been baptized.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's the way I understand it from what I read.

Gal. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

That excludes everyone that has not been baptized.

You left out the next verse which proves that being baptized into Christ is in regard to being baptized into the Body of Christ:

"for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:27-28).​

This is that baptism:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

At this time there is only "one" baptism and 1 Corinthians 12:13 speaks of that one baptism:

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph.4:4-6).​

 

[turbosixx]

You left out the next verse which proves that being baptized into Christ is in regard to being baptized into the Body of Christ:

"for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:27-28).​

This is that baptism:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

At this time there is only "one" baptism and 1 Corinthians 12:13 speaks of that one baptism:

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Eph.4:4-6).​

I agree that is what puts us into the body, that is why we see it last in the conversion process. Yes, when we are baptized the spirit seals us.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I agree that is what puts us into the body, that is why we see it last in the conversion process. Yes, when we are baptized the spirit seals us.

I see no process. The moment when a person believes He is baptized into the Body of Christ and it is there where he inherits eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

 

[Danoh]

I see no process. The moment when a person believes He is baptized into the Body of Christ and it is there where he inherits eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

Tell him what you mean as to the baptism you are talking about, and show him the passages. Don't keep it vague just so you can continue to bait him into proving him wrong.

 

[way 2 go]

I see no process. The moment when a person believes He is baptized into the Body of Christ and it is there where he inherits eternal life

so not just believe

Jas_2:19 You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

so not just believe

Jas_2:19 You believe that there is one God, you do well; even the demons believe and tremble.

So you are using that to prove that that what is written here in the book of John is in error?:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

Here is says only "believe" but you say "not just believe."

I believe what is written at John 3:16 and not what you say.

The gospel is directed at men and not demons. So whatever the demons might do or not do has nothing at all to do with men.

 

[way 2 go]

So you are using that to prove that that what is written here in the book of John is in error?

book of John is fine . you are in error

I see no process. The moment when a person believes He is baptized into the Body of Christ and it is there where he inherits eternal life:

 

[turbosixx]

I see no process. The moment when a person believes He is baptized into the Body of Christ and it is there where he inherits eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

I see a process and baptism is always the last thing the convert does because that completes the conversion into Christ.

Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Has been - Past tense

 

[Jerry Shugart]

book of John is fine . you are in error

Here is the verse again:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

Do you believe that the Jewish believers who lived under the Law were saved by faith alone? Just answer that one question.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I see a process and baptism is always the last thing the convert does because that completes the conversion into Christ.

Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Those words were in regard to the previous dispensation. Today there is but one baptism and that one is when the Holy Spirit baptizes believers into the Body of Christ.

Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

At Mark 16:16 the Lord is not saying that a requirement for salvation is baptism with water, but instead He is describing those who will be saved. This is similiar to the following words of the Lord:

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life" (Mt.19:29).​

Here the Lord says that those who have forsaken their families will receive everlasting life, but surely no one will argue that this is a requirement for salvation. Instead, the Lord is merely describing many who will be saved.

Besides, before anyone can be baptized with water that person must first believe:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).​

As the following words demonstrate, the eunuch had already received everlasting life the moment that he believed:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

Therefore, we can understand that the eunuch was saved before a drop of water even touched him.

 

[turbosixx]

Those words were in regard to the previous dispensation. Today there is but one baptism and that one is when the Holy Spirit baptizes believers into the Body of Christ.

Let's work with this. I'm not aware of anyone being baptized by the HS without being water baptized in this "new" dispensation, could you please show me scripture?