ECT MADists don't follow Paul

[tetelestai]

Trying to get the same story out of him everytime is like trying to pin down jello.

Nope.

I have always said that the Revelation was written early.

It was definitely written before the signs began happening to the Jews and Jerusalem.

 

[Danoh]

do the math and prove it,,,,,,

Moron - by your own reckoning your math is wrong :rotfl:

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

[Interplanner]

That's correct.

Jesus told them the following:

(Luke 21:20) “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

The signs began when the Roman General Cestius Gallus surrounded Jerusalem in 66AD. After surrounding the city for about five days Gallus retreated to the coast for no explainable reason. The Christians in the city fled to the mountains before Vespasian and Titus returned to destroy it for good in 70AD.

"The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella." Eusebius, Book III, 5:4

"It then happened that Cestius was not conscious either how the besieged despaired of success, nor how courageous the people were for him; and so he recalled his soldiers from the place, and by despairing of any expectation of taking it, without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world." - Josephus, Wars, II, XIX, 6,7

But this is not the better known interruption of the Roman siege. Vespasian stopped because of the possible collapse or schism of the federal system, went to Rome, and sent son Titus back to finish. There was about a year interruption.

The seizure of temple funds which started riots in Caesarea was enough of a signal for the average person in Jerusalem that the Romans were going to have it out with the Judeans. Jesus is not providing 'magical' signs about when to do things, but is totally common sense.

 

[Interplanner]

Now your saying that the signs were already occurring and john received the Revelation after the end was ongoing and was visible when the Revelation was received ,before the signs ,as a warning or after?

There are resources to use about this situation, WhiteS, which are the existing descriptions of the Jewish War. Before D'ism came, this used to be common knowledge. For ex., in 1805 or so, Pastor Peter Holford circuited England showing the divine proof about Christ in that he explained so many details about the conflict with Rome 35 years in advance. Holford did this right when skeptic Thomas Payne was trying to get his dismissal of Christianity published, and set all that back a generation. The skeptics stopped attacking Christ and went after Genesis.

 

[Interplanner]

There is a clear distinction between the following two commands:

#1

(Dan 12:4) But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

#2

(Rev 22:10) Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near.

As we see above, Daniel was told to seal his scroll UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END, whereas John was told NOT to seal his scroll BECAUSE THE TIME IS NEAR.

How can someone read the two verses, and then claim what John was told ("the time is near), really means 2,000 years?

Excellent quality observation, Tet. This is the kind of rational reading of the Bible we are supposed to be doing, instead of the horrible short-circuiting caused by people trying to validate imaginary 'systems' or charts or prophetic plan, which so many people absorb as though the whole world was an irrational matter.

btw, there is a linguistic discussion, still unresolved as far as I know, about Dan 9's 'seal up prophecy.' Instead of it meaning 'hide it until that time' it should read '(Messiah) will finalize or actualize it all'. Of course, if the 'that time' is the Gospel event of the Messiah, it is not much of a difference.

 

[Interplanner]

Moron - by your own reckoning your math is wrong :rotfl:

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I don't bother with any of your posts that insult other posters, you need to deal with that elsewhere.

 

[Interplanner]

I don't have the list handy, but Pastor Holford summarized the signs that took place during the Jewish War (from Josephus' record), and when you see them together it is formidable. There are some things on which Josephus embellished, but in these cases, he did not see them himself, but so many people did that he put together the best corroboration he could.

 

[whitestone]

Moron - by your own reckoning your math is wrong :rotfl:

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

lol,maybe so rabbit,maybe so,lol. I don't think He'll spot it though,maybe so he did pause for quite a while. Press the question in #1856 and see if he will answer,,,

 

[Lazy afternoon]

That's correct.

Jesus told them the following:

(Luke 21:20) “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

The signs began when the Roman General Cestius Gallus surrounded Jerusalem in 66AD. After surrounding the city for about five days Gallus retreated to the coast for no explainable reason. The Christians in the city fled to the mountains before Vespasian and Titus returned to destroy it for good in 70AD.

"The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella." Eusebius, Book III, 5:4

"It then happened that Cestius was not conscious either how the besieged despaired of success, nor how courageous the people were for him; and so he recalled his soldiers from the place, and by despairing of any expectation of taking it, without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world." - Josephus, Wars, II, XIX, 6,7

That was not the sign/s of Jesus coming.

LA

 

[Interplanner]

That was not the sign/s of Jesus coming.

LA

The question was whether it was a signal to leave the area.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The question was whether it was a signal to leave the area.

The questions asked of Jesus, referred to--

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


Hidden in the near destruction of Jerusalem is the message of the destruction of the apostate churches at the end of the age.

There is no way that Christ returned in 70 AD or that the end of the age occurred.

LA

 

[Danoh]

The questions asked of Jesus, referred to--

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


Hidden in the near destruction of Jerusalem is the message of the destruction of the apostate churches at the end of the age.

There is no way that Christ returned in 70 AD or that the end of the age occurred.

LA

Hah - those three questions are pre into midtrib, posttrib, into milliennial, post millennial, in that order.

 

[tetelestai]

The questions asked of Jesus, referred to--

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Keep reading, Jesus made a very important point:

(Matt 24:34) Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

 

[Interplanner]

The questions asked of Jesus, referred to--

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


Hidden in the near destruction of Jerusalem is the message of the destruction of the apostate churches at the end of the age.

There is no way that Christ returned in 70 AD or that the end of the age occurred.

LA

Prove what you mean about apostate churches. If you're referring to 'many will come in my name', you aren't aware of what the 1st century was like in Judea--how many messiahs there were. Mt24A is about 1st century Judea. B is broadened to the whole world.

 

[Interplanner]

Hah - those three questions are pre into midtrib, posttrib, into milliennial, post millennial, in that order.

Besides the grammar being impossible here, this is simply not true in the flow of the conversation. They are quite stumped to have heard about the desolation, and so he provides the details. He is completing that thought. He is not a 'theologian' in the modern sense. And there is no 2P2P in the Bible, except in veiled Judaism, 2 Cor 3-5. The reign of God through him is underway, demonstrated by his soon resurrection to his throne.

And on one detail, 'end of the world' is deliberately misleading in English. 'Aion' here has too many other possible references.

 

[Danoh]

Besides the grammar being impossible here, this is simply not true in the flow of the conversation. They are quite stumped to have heard about the desolation, and so he provides the details. He is completing that thought. He is not a 'theologian' in the modern sense. And there is no 2P2P in the Bible, except in veiled Judaism, 2 Cor 3-5. The reign of God through him is underway, demonstrated by his soon resurrection to his throne.

And on one detail, 'end of the world' is deliberately misleading in English. 'Aion' here has too many other possible references.

Where did I relate anything in my post to 2P2P?

And then you wonder why we view you and yours as being in the dark.

And there is nothing wrong with the word "world" there; its's there is "the order of things as we presently know them..."

:doh:

 

[Interplanner]

Where did I relate anything in my post to 2P2P?

And then you wonder why we view you and yours as being in the dark.

And there is nothing wrong with the word "world" there; its's there is "the order of things as we presently know them..."

:doh:

Millenialism per se is a 2P2P by-product. Duh. The 'millenium' in pop eschatology (Lindsey and his step children) is how you 'balance' the Bible's 2 programs, which are not actually there.

If you think Jesus was talking about the end of the world (the planet) first, then it will put all kinds of pop "end times" scenarios in your head and you will think he is a bizarre spacecase here looking at the buildings in front of him but talking about things that will happen in 2000 years.

Instead, aion is an age or period or phase. There are about 6 options in the context, but we have to find the one closest to the desolation, because that is how we got here in the text. He had just announced it. Yes, 'the order of things as we presently know them' is a fair choice, but up above you were talking about milleniums and syncing 2P2P stuff. Don't you ever check back a post or two to see what you were saying, or are you too busy playing with the iconator?

 

[Danoh]

Millenialism per se is a 2P2P by-product. Duh. The 'millenium' in pop eschatology (Lindsey and his step children) is how you 'balance' the Bible's 2 programs, which are not actually there.

If you think Jesus was talking about the end of the world (the planet) first, then it will put all kinds of pop "end times" scenarios in your head and you will think he is a bizarre spacecase here looking at the buildings in front of him but talking about things that will happen in 2000 years.

Instead, aion is an age or period or phase. There are about 6 options in the context, but we have to find the one closest to the desolation, because that is how we got here in the text. He had just announced it. Yes, 'the order of things as we presently know them' is a fair choice, but up above you were talking about milleniums and syncing 2P2P stuff. Don't you ever check back a post or two to see what you were saying, or are you too busy playing with the iconator?

You are still reading a 2P2P into what I was saying as to that passage.

Face it. You do that anytime we mention Romans 11 as well.

No matter how many times you are told that the salvation being spoken of in Romans 11 is the issue of justification from sins, you turn around and repeat that at the same time that you assert we are asserting a theocracy.

YOU read YOUR conclusions FROM books "about" by God knows who, INTO our EVERY post.

Whatever it is that you view as our supposed 2P2P assertion - Matthew 24 would NOT be it :doh:

 

[Cross Reference]

You are still reading a 2P2P into what I was saying as to that passage.

Face it. You do that anytime we mention Romans 11 as well.

No matter how many times you are told that the salvation being spoken of in Romans 11 is the issue of justification from sins, you turn around and repeat that at the same time that you assert we are asserting a theocracy.

YOU read YOUR conclusions FROM books "about" by God knows who, INTO our EVERY post.

Whatever it is that you view as our supposed 2P2P assertion - Matthew 24 would NOT be it :doh:

Doesn't not 2P2P equal 4P? Or is it simply 2P or not 2p?

 

[Interplanner]

Doesn't not 2P2P equal 4P? Or is it simply 2P or not 2p?

For the hundredth time, 2P2P is the Ryrie doctrine in his book D'ISM TODAY that God has two separate programs and peoples running in the Bible. They do not merge or overlap. Salvation means two different things. Etc ad naseum.

The reason the sequential chart method of Revelation exists is so that people who think there is 2P2P can 'reconcile the books' by figuring out who is where in the Mill. Which is what Danoh was doing. It is not what Christ was doing in Mt 23-24. The view of things coming is structured so completely different than 2P2P and D'ism that it is too much to express here. Get the thread 'the 10 propositions about NT eschatology' down first. Then we'll talk.

As for Danoh's last line, Mt 24 says too many things for his last to be meaningful. There are plenty of things in Mt 24 that could be misunderstood as 2P2P if you post-date it.