Mad but Im not pretrib

whitestone

Well-known member
I don't think the body of Christ has any wrath that we need to suffer in tribulation. That's israel's appionted time of trouble. The body may get caught in the crossfire though

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The "wrath",,,thats the interesting part of it I think "who are those who receive the wrath and why"? Revelation 14:9-10 KJV , (on only those with the mark),some have got/get "victory" over the mark Revelation 15:2 KJV and then again in Revelation 16:1-2 KJV the "wrath" is poured out on those who "have the mark,name ect. In Revelation 19:20 KJV the beast and false prophet who deceived...are cast into the pit(but) those who received it are "slain with the sword".

In Revelation 20:4 KJV the ones who (didn't) receive the mark "reigned" with Christ during the Mill.(so the mark thing happens before the mill.) And then in Revelation 22:18 KJV anyone who adds to or takes away will receive plagues(wrath?),,,but I don't see anyone who does not have the "mark,number,name,worship the image or who change the words of rev." receiving the "wrath of God". But then dividing it from Israel and the BOC would make a difference(are the BOC even there during these events?). I say this because of Revelation 7:3 KJV ,,so none of this is suppose to happen until the servants of God are "sealed" in their foreheads, so this cannot begin to happen "until" after the servants of God are "all sealed". Ephesians 4:30 KJV (sealed).

Then there's the word "tribulation" http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_2347.htm ,,,there's the "great tribulation"(Matthew,Mark,Luke) and then there are tribulations that were (in general?) and then there are two distinct types in 2 Thessalonians 1:4-6 KJV "there are the tribulations they BOC faced and God will Recompense tribulation on those who troubled them". But this "great tribulation" the wrath? So who is the "tribulation on"? If Paul states that they(the Thessalonians,Paul ect.) faced tribulation and that God would turn around this on those who "did it" 2 Thessalonians 1:6 KJV who was causing them tribulation,the Jews?
 

Nick M

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:)

But Jesus says that it is


"....after the tribulation of those days....they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with the trump of God and the angels will gather His elect from the four corners of heaven"

This matches 2. Thess.2. exactly

Paul said he was revealing something new, which means that is not the departure of the body. He said I tell you a mystery.

Being resurrected was not a mystery. It was foretold. The snatching away was not foretold.
 
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Nick M

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Nick no i dont think we can lose our salvation. At least not yet if a body of Christ takes the mark of the beast then maybe then. We are still in the dispensation of grace now. That might change in the tribulation.

That would imply that we do not have everlasting life. Do you understand what everlasting means? Salvation is moving from death to life. That is not something that is undone. Don't try to interpret what it says, just believe it. The son of perdition is not revealed and those events do not take place until the departure of the church.
 

steko

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LIFETIME MEMBER
:)

But Jesus says that it is


"....after the tribulation of those days....they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with the trump of God and the angels will gather His elect from the four corners of heaven"

This matches 2. Thess.2. exactly

Sorry to differ, but Mat 24:31 is prophecy concerning the final believing remnant of Israel who are gathered from the nations at Christ's second coming. Christ's statement is in full harmony with OT prophecy regarding the end of Israel's diaspora and gathering back to the land. Note, angels do the gathering of Israel in Mat 24:31 vs 'the Lord Himself' gathers the BOC in 1Th 4:16.
 

Nick M

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Sorry to differ, but Mat 24:31 is prophecy concerning the final believing remnant of Israel who are gathered from the nations at Christ's second coming. Christ's statement is in full harmony with OT prophecy regarding the end of Israel's diaspora and gathering back to the land. Note, angels do the gathering of Israel in Mat 24:31 vs 'the Lord Himself' gathers the BOC in 1Th 4:16.

Right. If Paul spoke of it, then he should not have said it was a mystery. Nicodemus was mocked for not knowing. And then meshak and Gods Truth would tell the Lord he was not being like Jesus.
 

Totton Linnet

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Part of the "tribulation of those days" will be that "brother shall deliver up brother to death and the father the son, and children shall rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death." This cannot be Jews WHY?

Because if the Jewish brother betrays his brother he betrays himself, for if the brother is Jewish, then he must be Jewish also. So also the father and children.....See how this is not tribulation from God but persecution from man.
 

Danoh

New member
Part of the "tribulation of those days" will be that "brother shall deliver up brother to death and the father the son, and children shall rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death." This cannot be Jews WHY?

Because if the Jewish brother betrays his brother he betrays himself, for if the brother is Jewish, then he must be Jewish also. So also the father and children.....See how this is not tribulation from God but persecution from man.

As usual, Totty, dear sis, yours is nevertheless very poor reasoning on your part as to some of these issues.

Because you reason about these things through your own reasoning, in contrast to doing so through (or in light of) the Scripture's own testimony on any issue.

Meaning in light of what you think is being referred to, in contrast to doing so in light of comparing verse with verse.

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; 7:46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.

7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

Acts 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. 22:22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live. 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,

Acts 23:12 And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.

Acts 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

And that last passage shows why you are off-base in your assertions about "the wrath of God" as to when and upon whom.

Plenty of key, foundational pasages on that what "the wrath" is, when it actually begins, and on whom.

Where?

Not surprisingly; in Genesis thru Deuteronomy.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber

Where? When? How?

What did He do, speak to you in a dream, cause you didn't get that doctrine from the bible.

Not that I necessarily think you're wrong, by the way. The bible doesn't tell us what God does with babies and small children that die. For all we know they are treated in an entirely different manner than you and I. Or perhaps not. The point being, we don't know.
 

Swifty357

New member
Nick if apostasy in 2 thessalonians means departure i could see a pretrib rapture in chapter 2. I have always been taught apostasy "The falling away" was was a falling away from the faith on unprecedented levels. When the world is finally ripe for the antichrists reign. Which the world is showing this apostasy a lot lately. Churchs marrying homosexuals, evolution believed by the masses, no longer allowed to pray at school or in social settings, babies being murdered daily with protection by the supreme court. Ect. In some liberal churches you would be hard pressed to hear the real gospel, but a socialist humanitarian gospel. Superstar preachers like Joel Olsteen preach a positive thinking get rich version of the gospel witj no Jesus Christ and the cross anywhere in their message.
 

Swifty357

New member
The net bible translates apostasy as rebellion then the man of sin comes. I will do more research on the word apostasy, this is one of the most important subjects in the bible.
 

Nick M

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Nick if apostasy in 2 thessalonians means departure i could see a pretrib rapture in chapter 2. I have always been taught apostasy "The falling away" was was a falling away from the faith on unprecedented levels.

I read no Greek. Others that do say "departure" not backsliding. The context demands the departure of the church anyway. And, most importantly, the Body cannot back slide or fall away. It is impossible. He is faithful when we are faithless.
 

Nick M

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LIFETIME MEMBER
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The net bible translates apostasy as rebellion then the man of sin comes. I will do more research on the word apostasy, this is one of the most important subjects in the bible.

When you read about the Bible, you are mostly reading things from demon possessed perverts who twist the Bible. Just believe what it says.
 

musterion

Well-known member
I don't think the body of Christ has any wrath that we need to suffer in tribulation.

Yep.

That's israel's appionted time of trouble.

Yep.

The body may get caught in the crossfire though

"Crossfire" is too vague. We must be firm on this: *when* does the wrath of God begin?

I ask because most on TOL favor mixing two things that must be kept separate. They mix [1] PERSECUTION (which all Body members are subject to, 2 Tim 3:12) with [2] the coming outpouring of WRATH.

You can guess where this must lead. They end up denying the Word's assurance that the Body of Christ IS NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH (1 Thess 5:9) by taking passages describing the wrath of God and artificially saying that they're really just describing the wrath of men or of Satan, or both...but it's not the wrath of God yet.

So they always have the Body subjected to what God says we're NOT. Making Him a liar.

So try this: instead of trying to time the Rapture, decide where the Bible indicates God's wrath begins to be poured out. Wherever you see that starting point, the Body will have to have been removed from the scene first.

Where do YOU say God's wrath is indicated to begin?
 

Totton Linnet

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There are not multiple comings of the Son of man in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory, there is but one such coming, whether John or Matthew in ch.24 or Paul in 2nd thess. it is the same event. It is the Parousia, He will also destroy Antichrist and the nations that come up with him.

Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days .... they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory....."

Jesus was Post-Trib.
 

Totton Linnet

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As usual, Totty, dear sis, yours is nevertheless very poor reasoning on your part as to some of these issues.

Because you reason about these things through your own reasoning, in contrast to doing so through (or in light of) the Scripture's own testimony on any issue.

Meaning in light of what you think is being referred to, in contrast to doing so in light of comparing verse with verse.

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Acts 7:44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. 7:45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; 7:46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob.

7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

Acts 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles. 22:22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live. 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,

Acts 23:12 And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.

Acts 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them. 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

And that last passage shows why you are off-base in your assertions about "the wrath of God" as to when and upon whom.

Plenty of key, foundational pasages on that what "the wrath" is, when it actually begins, and on whom.

Where?

Not surprisingly; in Genesis thru Deuteronomy.

Wrath came upon that generation to the uttermost, You cain't quote Stephen as the reason or a reason why God should abandon the Jews forever for Paul was among those putting Stephen to death.

You are violating a Grace principle

For the Grace principle is that "the fathers will no longer eat sour grapes the children's teeth are put on edge."

All you have to do to discover whether or not the Jews are saved during the tribulation is consult Jeremiah .30. There he speaks about Jacob's trouble and says specifically that Israel will be saved out of it..."he shall sit under his fig tree and under his vine and none shall make him afraid"

In Daniel 12. specifically the great tribulation is mention and once more you will see that "at that time Michael will stand up for Israel and deliver them"

The "great tribulation" is not the "wrath of God" ....know that...
 

Danoh

New member
Wrath came upon that generation to the uttermost, You cain't quote Stephen as the reason or a reason why God should abandon the Jews forever for Paul was among those putting Stephen to death.

You are violating a Grace principle

For the Grace principle is that "the fathers will no longer eat sour grapes the children's teeth are put on edge."

All you have to do to discover whether or not the Jews are saved during the tribulation is consult Jeremiah .30. There he speaks about Jacob's trouble and says specifically that Israel will be saved out of it..."he shall sit under his fig tree and under his vine and none shall make him afraid"

In Daniel 12. specifically the great tribulation is mention and once more you will see that "at that time Michael will stand up for Israel and deliver them"

The "great tribulation" is not the "wrath of God" ....know that...

1- Fact is I hold that Rom. 11:25-29 are in reference to a yet future for Israel.

2- I was addrressing the error you posted about Jews not killing Jews.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

3- All you did was do what I have asserted you do - you read things into a thing and then think that is what it is talking about.

4- At the risk of offending you, this reading of yours into a thing followed by your taking those things you have read into them as being what it is talking about - is exactly why you are Charismatic (hold that signs and wonders of one sort or another are still manifesting during this age).

Anyone who holds to signs and wonders still being in effect in one way or another, either does not know how to soundly examine their understanding on that out, concluding instead their understanding is sound, or has not bothered to examine same.

5- Further, in 2 Thess. 2, the Apostle Paul identifies what he means by "the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost."
 

Totton Linnet

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@ At Danoh hi :)

You read too many books and don't read the bible enough

They all tell you Israel will go through the tribulation....the bible says they will be kept in perfect safety,

Jeremiah 30 and Dan.12 both speak specifically about the trib, they both say Israel will be saved from it.

I am not going to read it for you.

As for my being baptised with the Holy Ghost and power, it was not something I "thought" or "decided" or "chose of my own freewill" the way you guys say...it is something God did when I got saved before I ever knew about such things...you need to akse Him about that.

Read Jeremiah 30 before responding :) I did not say Jews will not kill Jews. I said if a Jew betrays his son he will be betraying himself because if his son is Jewish then he too must be Jewish.
 
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