Mad but Im not pretrib

Totton Linnet

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The net bible translates apostasy as rebellion then the man of sin comes. I will do more research on the word apostasy, this is one of the most important subjects in the bible.

Quite so

The way Nick puts it is like this

Concerning our gathering to meet Him in the clouds

or "concerning the rapture

That day will not come unless a rapture [departure] has first taken place"....daft

Christ comes at the end of Antichrist's reign not the beginning.
 

Swifty357

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It all rests on that apostasy word and its proper translation. If it means departure then its case closed as far as im concerned. That would be the pretrib rapture verse ive been searching for in the bible. Ironic because ive been using that very verse for my proof text for a post trib rapture. It all rests on the greek, unfortunately i dont know greek. The two resources i have here at home is the exhaustive Strong's concordance kjv edition, and the net bible with translators notes. Both say apoatasy means rebellion, a falling away from the faith. I need to search for more resources to help me decipher what it should mean in the context of the verse. Im hopeful that it means departure. As a mad believer i realise that the tribulation is Israel's time of trouble. And my theology studies have shown me the body of Christ is not Israel which is the bride of Christ. I havent wanted to be post trib, i was just trying to be faithful to the bible text. I wasnt seeing a pretrib in the scriptures. Now im filled with hope that i very well may have been given the scriptural support with this 2 thessalonians verse that ive been desperately seeking.

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Totton Linnet

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Paul said he was revealing something new, which means that is not the departure of the body. He said I tell you a mystery.

Being resurrected was not a mystery. It was foretold. The snatching away was not foretold.

I tell you a mystery...we shall not all die but we shall all be changed....pay attention
 

Totton Linnet

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It all rests on that apostasy word and its proper translation. If it means departure then its case closed as far as im concerned. That would be the pretrib rapture verse ive been searching for in the bible. Ironic because ive been using that very verse for my proof text for a post trib rapture. It all rests on the greek, unfortunately i dont know greek. The two resources i have here at home is the exhaustive Strong's concordance kjv edition, and the net bible with translators notes. Both say apoatasy means rebellion, a falling away from the faith. I need to search for more resources to help me decipher what it should mean in the context of the verse. Im hopeful that it means departure. As a mad believer i realise that the tribulation is Israel's time of trouble. And my theology studies have shown me the body of Christ is not Israel which is the bride of Christ. I havent wanted to be post trib, i was just trying to be faithful to the bible text. I wasnt seeing a pretrib in the scriptures. Now im filled with hope that i very well may have been given the scriptural support with this 2 thessalonians verse that ive been desperately seeking.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

Departure was always a trick used by Darby....every word has two or three meanings. A dictionary will give the prime meaning first then the secondary meaning...departure in the greek is the third meaning given for Apostacy...the prime meaning is rebellion.

What is so bad is that it is a deliberate deception, it was thrown out by every single British theologian...but Darby took it to America
 

Danoh

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Departure was always a trick used by Darby....every word has two or three meanings. A dictionary will give the prime meaning first then the secondary meaning...departure in the greek is the third meaning given for Apostacy...the prime meaning is rebellion.

What is so bad is that it is a deliberate deception, it was thrown out by every single British theologian...but Darby took it to America

I hate bringing this up, Totty, as I don't like asserting a thing based on books.

But your above is absolute nonsense.

One hundred years before Darby, Morgan Edwards wrote a paper in which he departed from his normal, heavily (so called) "spiritual" interpretation of Scripture, for a time, taking the literal route, just to see what he might see from there.

He concluded a Pre-Trib Rapture.

He then returned to his (so called) "spiritual" position on Scripture, and put that document away, where it remained until his own fellow (so called) "spiritualizers" found it with all his other unpublished writings.

I agree with you that "a falling away" refers to a rebellion.

But you are off on what that rebellion is - it is unbelieving Israel's rebellion, together with the world's - both of whom will persecute the Israel of God.

And no, I did not get that from books.

If that is what they teach, then fine.

But quit accusing me of that.

I read all sorts of secular books.

While, whenever I do read books having to do with matters of the faith, I prefer books by the opposition.

Even more so, by atheists.

Both kinds for their challenge.

Because I know Mid-Acts and know it well from time in the Scripture because Scripture is what I prefer when it comes to knowing about the Scripture.

In fact, very few books are written from a Mid-Acts Perspective to begin with - perhaps a shopping bag full and that's about it.

The overwhelming emphasis througout the movement is "Get in The Book" not in endless books supposedly "about" the Scripture.

Thanks for your challenge, sis, now get your facts straight :)
 

Nick M

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It all rests on that apostasy word and its proper translation. If it means departure then its case closed as far as im concerned.

Then the Bible falls apart, as the Body of Christ will fall away if that was true. This is why I asked about sinning your way out of salvation. One cannot fall away from the Body of Christ.
 

Danoh

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This issue is pretty straight foward - either one believes the following, or one does not...

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Paul even ties it to the fact of Christ's having risen from the dead.

Why?

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

And if Christ be not raised from the dead, then you have not been delivered from the wrath to come.

Instead, you are yet one of the children of Adam's disobedience...

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

That being the case - that Christ did not rise from the dead, and thus, you are still in your sins - then you are by nature one of the children of wrath, even as others.

Which are you, Swifty, that you still have doubts about your having been delivered from the wrath to come?

For neither "the wrath to come" upon whom it will, nor one's having been delivered from it, are based on one's works.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Which is your nature?

Are you still in Adam's transgression, or are you in Christ's finished work?

You see, the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine, or teaching, is not so much one verse, as based on a doctrine itself...

The doctrine or teaching that "...he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Cor. 5:21.
 

beameup

New member
English translations prior to the King James translated apostasia as departure (rapture).

It all rests on that apostasy word and its proper translation. If it means departure then its case closed as far as im concerned. That would be the pretrib rapture verse ive been searching for in the bible. Ironic because ive been using that very verse for my proof text for a post trib rapture. It all rests on the greek, unfortunately i dont know greek. The two resources i have here at home is the exhaustive Strong's concordance kjv edition, and the net bible with translators notes. Both say apoatasy means rebellion, a falling away from the faith. I need to search for more resources to help me decipher what it should mean in the context of the verse. Im hopeful that it means departure. As a mad believer i realise that the tribulation is Israel's time of trouble. And my theology studies have shown me the body of Christ is not Israel which is the bride of Christ. I havent wanted to be post trib, i was just trying to be faithful to the bible text. I wasnt seeing a pretrib in the scriptures. Now im filled with hope that i very well may have been given the scriptural support with this 2 thessalonians verse that ive been desperately seeking.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app
 

Totton Linnet

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This issue is pretty straight foward - either one believes the following, or one does not...

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Paul even ties it to the fact of Christ's having risen from the dead.

Why?

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

And if Christ be not raised from the dead, then you have not been delivered from the wrath to come.

Instead, you are yet one of the children of Adam's disobedience...

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

That being the case - that Christ did not rise from the dead, and thus, you are still in your sins - then you are by nature one of the children of wrath, even as others.

Which are you, Swifty, that you still have doubts about your having been delivered from the wrath to come?

For neither "the wrath to come" upon whom it will, nor one's having been delivered from it, are based on one's works.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Which is your nature?

Are you still in Adam's transgression, or are you in Christ's finished work?

You see, the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine, or teaching, is not so much one verse, as based on a doctrine itself...

The doctrine or teaching that "...he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Cor. 5:21.


Through much tribulation must we enter the kingdom of God


Tribulation comes from man, wrath comes from God
 

Totton Linnet

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Ok you are too lazy to read it for yourself so I'll read it for you

Jeremiah.30.7
Alas for that day is great so that there is none like it. It is even the time of Jacob's trouble but he shall be saved out of it
 

Danoh

New member
Dope, it means that his career of persecution which is the tribulation happens first

You're not making sense, Tots.

You assert the trib, persecutions, wrath is not for Israel, but for the nations, at the same time that you assert that the Rapture is after the trib, persecutions, wrath.

What you are asserting either way is a works based salvation.

Would you mind sharing the basis of your salvation, and if it can be lost, and how?

For the PostTrib is nothing more than a Replacement Theology.

The Body did not replace Israel.

Thanks :)
 

Totton Linnet

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This is Nick's version of 2.Thess.2

...brethren concerning the rapture, that day will not come until a departure has come first

there will be no rapture until there is a rapture....stupid
 

musterion

Well-known member
Through much tribulation must we enter the kingdom of God

That was evidently said before it was revealed to Paul that those in Christ have ALREADY been transferred into the Kingdom of the Son.

One can't already be in the Kingdom, and also be required to enter the Kingdom only by enduring through much tribulation.

Tribulation comes from man

Made up.
 

Danoh

New member
Ok you are too lazy to read it for yourself so I'll read it for you

Jeremiah.30.7
Alas for that day is great so that there is none like it. It is even the time of Jacob's trouble but he shall be saved out of it

Meaning, Israel goes through it, but will not be consumed by it.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.


Jeremiah 7:29 Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the LORD hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.

Jeremiah 21:5 And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath.

Jeremiah 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:

Jeremiah 44:8 In that ye provoke me unto wrath with the works of your hands, burning incense unto other gods in the land of Egypt, whither ye be gone to dwell, that ye might cut yourselves off, and that ye might be a curse and a reproach among all the nations of the earth?

Lamentations 2:2 The LORD hath swallowed up all the habitations of Jacob, and hath not pitied: he hath thrown down in his wrath the strong holds of the daughter of Judah; he hath brought them down to the ground: he hath polluted the kingdom and the princes thereof.

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
 
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