Limited atonement !

beloved57

Well-known member
Are you asking who can refuse to do God's will? Not Jesus, but all sinners refuse God's will at times in their lives.

Matthew 26:42
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
You limit Gods power to save, thats my point, everyone limits God. I told you how I see the atonement limited, in its extent, you limit it in its power, you say man can refuse the Power of God, I find that incredible Rom 9:19

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? According to you plenty of folk have
 

marke

Well-known member
You limit Gods power to save, thats my point, everyone limits God. I told you how I see the atonement limited, in its extent, you limit it in its power, you say man can refuse the Power of God, I find that incredible Rom 9:19

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? According to you plenty of folk have
Calvinists may think sinners do not resist the will of God but they only think that because they do not know or understand the Bible.

Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Romans 13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

2 Timothy 3:8
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Calvinists may think sinners do not resist the will of God but they only think that because they do not know or understand the Bible.

Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Romans 13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

2 Timothy 3:8
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
So you limit Gods power, thats incredible.
 

JudgeRightly

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So you limit Gods power, thats incredible.

Here is God saying He cannot do what he wanted to do, because of man.


11 - God Expects that Something Will Happen that Doesn’t Happen.
Communicating His expectation and hope through Isaiah, comparing Israel to a well-tended vineyard, "He expected it to bring forth good grapes" but it did not for instead "it brought forth wild grapes" Isa. 5:1-2; "What more could have been done...?", God asks, thus He says, "I expected it [Israel] to bring forth good grapes" but instead He got "wild grapes" Isa. 5:3-4; for hope is knowledge influenced by love yet those who claim God's knowledge is static see any hope in Him as weakness and error, whereas in reality God said, in the Hebrew using the future tense, "she will return", that Israel "will return to Me, but she did not return" Jer. 3:7; God said, "I have caused the whole house... of Judah to cling to Me... but they would not hear" Jer. 13:11; "I said, 'You shall... not turn away from Me.' [but] as a wife treacherously departs from her husband, so have you dealt treacherously with Me" Jer. 3:19-20; "I said, 'Surely you will fear Me, you will receive instruction' but... they corrupted all their deeds" Zeph. 3:7; Because Israel didn't act as God expected, He said, "Surely they are My people [and will act in truth] but they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit, so He turned Himself against them" Isa. 63:8-10; "For thus says the Lord God... 'In returning you shall be saved...' But you would not, and you said, 'No...' " Isa. 30:15-16; God says, I will not destroy the nation "that I thought" to destroy Jer. 18:7-8 as God had said, forty days and Nineveh will be destroyed Jonah 3:4, 10; Jesus, as God the Son, was surprised "And He marveled because of their unbelief" (John 6:6); [see also Jer. 26:3] etc.

. . .

17 - God Indicates Certain Prophecies Will Go Unfulfilled, i.e., God says what will happen but then says that it won’t happen.
God says He will "without fail" cast out the Canaanites, Jebusites, etc., but a generation later because of Israel's rebellion, God says that He will not cast them out Josh. 3:10 and Deut. 7:17-20, 22-24 with Deut. 7:1, 23, Jud. 2:1, 20-23, 3:5, 10; Ex. 32:10; 33:2, 3; Deut. 12:29; Judges 2:3; 10:13 (all as quoted above in Category 10); God issues prophecies against Tyre and then reveals that the prophecy will not come to pass (and certainly not in its various details) Ezek. 26:12; 29:18; see there regarding Egypt also.

. . .

20 - God Says He Will No Longer Do Something He Said He Would Do.
When I say that I will bless a nation, if they disobey Me, I will not do that which I said I will do Jer. 18:9-10; God acted on this warning as described by Isaiah: "... A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard [Israel]: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes [faith], But it brought forth wild grapes [unbelief]. And now... Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes? And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. I will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, But there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it.” For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel... He looked for justice, but behold, oppression..." Isa. 5:1-6; Drive out nations Joshua 23:13; Judge 2:21; Jonah 3:10.

. . .

29 - Prayer Can Change What Would Otherwise Be the Future.
Jehoahaz pleaded and God listened and helped deliver Israel 2 Kings 13:4; God told Hezekiah to prepare for "you shall die and not live" but the King pleaded with God who then said, "I have heard your prayer and surely I will heal you... And I will add to your days fifteen years" 2 Kings 20:1-6; a persistent widow pleaded with an unjust judge and Jesus interpreted His own parable, Shall not God answer the prayers of those who continue to ask God Luke 18:1-7; the friend who comes asking for bread at midnight is resisted until his persists and Jesus interprets His parables saying So ask God "and it will be given to you" Luke 11:5-9; Jesus could call for twelve legions of angels (to save Him from the cross) Mat. 26:53; etc.

. . .

31 - The Bible Shows Certain Prophecies Were Not Fulfilled as Given and that some will never be fulfilled which leaves some as permanently unfulfilled prophecy. [Category 17 above is even stronger than this one and differs in that it lists verses in which God Himself says that one of His prophecies will not come to pass. Here in Category 31, the verses do not quote God explictily saying that a prophecy will fail, but rather, the text conclusively indicates that the prophecy will not come to pass.]
God prophesied to David by way of the ephod that Saul was on his way and, as to whether the men of Keilah would betray him to Saul, "the Lord said, 'They will deliver you.' " So David departed from there and, "Then it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah; so he halted the expedition" 1 Sam. 23:9-13 and the Keilahites never delivered David to Saul; Nebuchadnezzar himself did not take Tyre nor did he receive the spoils as prophesied Ezek. 29:18 Ezekiel prophesies that Nebuchadnezzar will take Egypt Ezek. 29:19 but compared to the rest of sacred and profane history, Nebuchadnezzar never conquered Egypt; many scriptures indicate that Jesus would return soon after His departure, such that the apostles would not have time to go through the cities (villages) of Israel before Jesus returns Mat. 10:23; that some standing there may not die until they see the Son of Man returning in power in His kingdom Mat. 16:28 (not referencing the Transfiguration, because that occurred almost immediately); the apostle John might have remained alive until Christ's return John 21:23; [the near Second Coming explains the otherwise seeming reckless teachings of "Sell what you have" Luke 12:33; "And everyone who has left houses... or lands, for My name's sake" Mat. 19:29. "do not worry about your life, what you will eat" Luke 12:22. The "ravens... neither sow nor reap" yet "God feeds them" Luke 12:24; "Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your moneybelts" Mat. 10:9; "Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and... come, follow Me" Luke 18:22;] the generation Jesus was speaking to would not pass until the tribulation and Second Coming prophecies took place Mat. 24:34; yet God had warned He may not give Israel their kingdom as prophesied for "the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice [such as in rejecting their resurrected Messiah], then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it" Jer. 18:9-10; thus God views the end times calendar as changeable, "I, the LORD, will hasten it in its time" Isa. 60:22; and even the saints can change the time of Christ's return as Peter wrote that believers too should set about "hastening the coming of the day of God" 2 Peter 3:12; and even the length of the tribulation will change as Jesus said that, "those days will be shortened" Mat. 24:22; [so expecting Christ's soon return therefore, in early Acts, the converts of the Lord, of Peter, and of the rest of the Twelve, sold their homes and their land Acts 4:34-35; 5:1-2; (but the converts of the one sent to the Gentiles, the apostle Paul, did not sell their homes or fields for from them He raised relief 1 Cor. 16:1–4; 2 Cor. 8:1-9:15; Gal. 2:10; Rom. 15:25–31; Acts 11:27–30; 24:17 for the believers who had sold their homes]; and like the shortening of the tribulation, the three days of God's punishment were cut short, for "Thus says the Lord: '... choose... seven years of famine... Or... flee three months before your enemies... Or... three days' plague..." And David said... "Please let us fall into the hand of the Lord, for His mercies are great..." So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel from the morning till the appointed time [i.e., of the evening sacrifice]. And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented from the destruction and said to the angel who was destroying the people, "It is enough; now restrain your hand." ... Then David spoke to the Lord when he saw the angel who was striking the people and said, "Surely I have sinned and I have done wickedly but... what have they done? ... So the Lord heeded the prayers for the land, and the plague was withdrawn from Israel." 2 Sam. 24:12-17, 25; the prophecy of expelling the pagan nations from the promised land would not be fulfilled as it had been prophesied Josh. 3:10 with Deut. 7:1, 23, Jud. 2:1, 20-23, 3:5, 10; Ex. 32:10; 33:2, 3; Deut. 12:29; Judges 2:3; 10:13; God issues prophecies against Tyre and then reveals that the prophecy did not come to pass (and certainly not in its various details) Ezek. 26:12. [See also Jer. 18:6-10.]

32 - The Bible Shows Things Could Have Been Different.
Saul’s descendants could have reigned on his throne forever as Samuel said to him, "You have not kept the commandment of the Lord your God, which He commanded you. For now the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel forever" 1 Sam. 13:13; and likewise, some of God's priests who were cut off could have served Him forever: "Now take Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister to Me as priest, Aaron and Aaron's sons: Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar" Ex. 28:1 for "the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons forever" Deut. 18:5 yet God killed two of the sons for "Nadab and Abihu died when they offered profane fire" Num. 26:61 for "fire went out from the Lord and devoured them, and they died before the Lord" Lev. 10:1-2; and about their father, "the Lord was very angry with Aaron and would have destroyed him; so I [Moses] prayed for Aaron" Deut. 9:20 and God did not kill him; also in the wilderness God had considered destroying the entire nation, for: "I would have said, 'I will make the memory of [Israel] to cease from among men' [but] lest their adversaries should misunderstand" and think that false gods and "not the Lord [had] done all this" Deut. 32:26-27; and to the whole nation once in Canaan, "if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land... it shall be that I will do to you as I thought to do to them" Num. 33:55-56 a punishment they could have avoided if they had obeyed; God told David that Saul was on his way and, as to whether the Keilahites would betray him, "the Lord said, 'They will deliver you.' " So David departed from there and "Then it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah; so he halted the expedition" 1 Sam. 23:9-13 so that in a few minutes the outcome changed from what it otherwise would have been; God said He "caused the whole house of Judah to cling to Me... but they would not hear" Jer. 13:11 [that's the Hebrew use of "cause", that is, provide the opportunity; make possible or even likely, i.e., Mat. 5:32]; "God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and repented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, 'It is enough; now restrain your hand' " 1 Chr. 21:15 so that Jerusalem was not totally destroyed as it could have been; to Adam God commanded, "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" Gen. 2:17; etc.

33 - God Says What He Wants to Do, But Can’t or Doesn’t Do.
Jesus said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets... How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood... but you were not willing!" Luke 13:34; "Come now [Moses], I will send you to Pharaoh..." But Moses said to God, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh..." So [God] said, "I will certainly be with you. ...you shall come... to the king of Egypt; and you shall say to him... 'let us go...' " ... Then Moses said... "O my Lord, I am not eloquent... I am slow of speech..." So the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes... the seeing...? Have not I, the Lord? Now therefore, go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall say." But he said, "O my Lord, please send by the hand of whomever else You may send." So the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses, and He said: “Is not Aaron the Levite your brother? I know that he can speak well. ... Now you shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth. ... So he shall be your spokesman... And Aaron spoke all the words which the Lord had spoken to Moses. Ex. 3:10-12, 18; 4:10-16, 30 and thereafter 68 times then the Bible mentions "Moses and Aaron"; "the Lord met him and sought to kill him" Ex. 4:24 but after Moses' wife resentfully circumcised their son God let her husband go; God said He would destroy the nation of Israel and start over with Moses Ex. 32:9-14; the wicked "limited the Holy One of Israel" from doing what He otherwise would have done Ps. 78:41; to have Ezekiel eat gross bread Ezek. 4:12; God says, "I sought for a man among them... but I found no one" Ezek. 22:30. [We'll be adding Jer. 18/Rom. 9 to this category, when the Potter (God) wanted to build a vessel for honor but made it again into another vessel, of dishonor.]


 

beloved57

Well-known member
Here is God saying He cannot do what he wanted to do, because of man.


11 - God Expects that Something Will Happen that Doesn’t Happen.
Communicating His expectation and hope through Isaiah, comparing Israel to a well-tended vineyard, "He expected it to bring forth good grapes" but it did not for instead "it brought forth wild grapes" Isa. 5:1-2; "What more could have been done...?", God asks, thus He says, "I expected it [Israel] to bring forth good grapes" but instead He got "wild grapes" Isa. 5:3-4; for hope is knowledge influenced by love yet those who claim God's knowledge is static see any hope in Him as weakness and error, whereas in reality God said, in the Hebrew using the future tense, "she will return", that Israel "will return to Me, but she did not return" Jer. 3:7; God said, "I have caused the whole house... of Judah to cling to Me... but they would not hear" Jer. 13:11; "I said, 'You shall... not turn away from Me.' [but] as a wife treacherously departs from her husband, so have you dealt treacherously with Me" Jer. 3:19-20; "I said, 'Surely you will fear Me, you will receive instruction' but... they corrupted all their deeds" Zeph. 3:7; Because Israel didn't act as God expected, He said, "Surely they are My people [and will act in truth] but they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit, so He turned Himself against them" Isa. 63:8-10; "For thus says the Lord God... 'In returning you shall be saved...' But you would not, and you said, 'No...' " Isa. 30:15-16; God says, I will not destroy the nation "that I thought" to destroy Jer. 18:7-8 as God had said, forty days and Nineveh will be destroyed Jonah 3:4, 10; Jesus, as God the Son, was surprised "And He marveled because of their unbelief" (John 6:6); [see also Jer. 26:3] etc.

. . .

17 - God Indicates Certain Prophecies Will Go Unfulfilled, i.e., God says what will happen but then says that it won’t happen.
God says He will "without fail" cast out the Canaanites, Jebusites, etc., but a generation later because of Israel's rebellion, God says that He will not cast them out Josh. 3:10 and Deut. 7:17-20, 22-24 with Deut. 7:1, 23, Jud. 2:1, 20-23, 3:5, 10; Ex. 32:10; 33:2, 3; Deut. 12:29; Judges 2:3; 10:13 (all as quoted above in Category 10); God issues prophecies against Tyre and then reveals that the prophecy will not come to pass (and certainly not in its various details) Ezek. 26:12; 29:18; see there regarding Egypt also.

. . .

20 - God Says He Will No Longer Do Something He Said He Would Do.
When I say that I will bless a nation, if they disobey Me, I will not do that which I said I will do Jer. 18:9-10; God acted on this warning as described by Isaiah: "... A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard [Israel]: My Well-beloved has a vineyard On a very fruitful hill. He dug it up and cleared out its stones, And planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, And also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes [faith], But it brought forth wild grapes [unbelief]. And now... Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. What more could have been done to My vineyard That I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes? And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned; And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down. I will lay it waste; It shall not be pruned or dug, But there shall come up briers and thorns. I will also command the clouds That they rain no rain on it.” For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel... He looked for justice, but behold, oppression..." Isa. 5:1-6; Drive out nations Joshua 23:13; Judge 2:21; Jonah 3:10.

. . .

29 - Prayer Can Change What Would Otherwise Be the Future.
Jehoahaz pleaded and God listened and helped deliver Israel 2 Kings 13:4; God told Hezekiah to prepare for "you shall die and not live" but the King pleaded with God who then said, "I have heard your prayer and surely I will heal you... And I will add to your days fifteen years" 2 Kings 20:1-6; a persistent widow pleaded with an unjust judge and Jesus interpreted His own parable, Shall not God answer the prayers of those who continue to ask God Luke 18:1-7; the friend who comes asking for bread at midnight is resisted until his persists and Jesus interprets His parables saying So ask God "and it will be given to you" Luke 11:5-9; Jesus could call for twelve legions of angels (to save Him from the cross) Mat. 26:53; etc.

. . .

31 - The Bible Shows Certain Prophecies Were Not Fulfilled as Given and that some will never be fulfilled which leaves some as permanently unfulfilled prophecy. [Category 17 above is even stronger than this one and differs in that it lists verses in which God Himself says that one of His prophecies will not come to pass. Here in Category 31, the verses do not quote God explictily saying that a prophecy will fail, but rather, the text conclusively indicates that the prophecy will not come to pass.]
God prophesied to David by way of the ephod that Saul was on his way and, as to whether the men of Keilah would betray him to Saul, "the Lord said, 'They will deliver you.' " So David departed from there and, "Then it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah; so he halted the expedition" 1 Sam. 23:9-13 and the Keilahites never delivered David to Saul; Nebuchadnezzar himself did not take Tyre nor did he receive the spoils as prophesied Ezek. 29:18 Ezekiel prophesies that Nebuchadnezzar will take Egypt Ezek. 29:19 but compared to the rest of sacred and profane history, Nebuchadnezzar never conquered Egypt; many scriptures indicate that Jesus would return soon after His departure, such that the apostles would not have time to go through the cities (villages) of Israel before Jesus returns Mat. 10:23; that some standing there may not die until they see the Son of Man returning in power in His kingdom Mat. 16:28 (not referencing the Transfiguration, because that occurred almost immediately); the apostle John might have remained alive until Christ's return John 21:23; [the near Second Coming explains the otherwise seeming reckless teachings of "Sell what you have" Luke 12:33; "And everyone who has left houses... or lands, for My name's sake" Mat. 19:29. "do not worry about your life, what you will eat" Luke 12:22. The "ravens... neither sow nor reap" yet "God feeds them" Luke 12:24; "Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your moneybelts" Mat. 10:9; "Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and... come, follow Me" Luke 18:22;] the generation Jesus was speaking to would not pass until the tribulation and Second Coming prophecies took place Mat. 24:34; yet God had warned He may not give Israel their kingdom as prophesied for "the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice [such as in rejecting their resurrected Messiah], then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it" Jer. 18:9-10; thus God views the end times calendar as changeable, "I, the LORD, will hasten it in its time" Isa. 60:22; and even the saints can change the time of Christ's return as Peter wrote that believers too should set about "hastening the coming of the day of God" 2 Peter 3:12; and even the length of the tribulation will change as Jesus said that, "those days will be shortened" Mat. 24:22; [so expecting Christ's soon return therefore, in early Acts, the converts of the Lord, of Peter, and of the rest of the Twelve, sold their homes and their land Acts 4:34-35; 5:1-2; (but the converts of the one sent to the Gentiles, the apostle Paul, did not sell their homes or fields for from them He raised relief 1 Cor. 16:1–4; 2 Cor. 8:1-9:15; Gal. 2:10; Rom. 15:25–31; Acts 11:27–30; 24:17 for the believers who had sold their homes]; and like the shortening of the tribulation, the three days of God's punishment were cut short, for "Thus says the Lord: '... choose... seven years of famine... Or... flee three months before your enemies... Or... three days' plague..." And David said... "Please let us fall into the hand of the Lord, for His mercies are great..." So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel from the morning till the appointed time [i.e., of the evening sacrifice]. And when the angel stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented from the destruction and said to the angel who was destroying the people, "It is enough; now restrain your hand." ... Then David spoke to the Lord when he saw the angel who was striking the people and said, "Surely I have sinned and I have done wickedly but... what have they done? ... So the Lord heeded the prayers for the land, and the plague was withdrawn from Israel." 2 Sam. 24:12-17, 25; the prophecy of expelling the pagan nations from the promised land would not be fulfilled as it had been prophesied Josh. 3:10 with Deut. 7:1, 23, Jud. 2:1, 20-23, 3:5, 10; Ex. 32:10; 33:2, 3; Deut. 12:29; Judges 2:3; 10:13; God issues prophecies against Tyre and then reveals that the prophecy did not come to pass (and certainly not in its various details) Ezek. 26:12. [See also Jer. 18:6-10.]

32 - The Bible Shows Things Could Have Been Different.
Saul’s descendants could have reigned on his throne forever as Samuel said to him, "You have not kept the commandment of the Lord your God, which He commanded you. For now the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel forever" 1 Sam. 13:13; and likewise, some of God's priests who were cut off could have served Him forever: "Now take Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister to Me as priest, Aaron and Aaron's sons: Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar" Ex. 28:1 for "the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons forever" Deut. 18:5 yet God killed two of the sons for "Nadab and Abihu died when they offered profane fire" Num. 26:61 for "fire went out from the Lord and devoured them, and they died before the Lord" Lev. 10:1-2; and about their father, "the Lord was very angry with Aaron and would have destroyed him; so I [Moses] prayed for Aaron" Deut. 9:20 and God did not kill him; also in the wilderness God had considered destroying the entire nation, for: "I would have said, 'I will make the memory of [Israel] to cease from among men' [but] lest their adversaries should misunderstand" and think that false gods and "not the Lord [had] done all this" Deut. 32:26-27; and to the whole nation once in Canaan, "if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land... it shall be that I will do to you as I thought to do to them" Num. 33:55-56 a punishment they could have avoided if they had obeyed; God told David that Saul was on his way and, as to whether the Keilahites would betray him, "the Lord said, 'They will deliver you.' " So David departed from there and "Then it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah; so he halted the expedition" 1 Sam. 23:9-13 so that in a few minutes the outcome changed from what it otherwise would have been; God said He "caused the whole house of Judah to cling to Me... but they would not hear" Jer. 13:11 [that's the Hebrew use of "cause", that is, provide the opportunity; make possible or even likely, i.e., Mat. 5:32]; "God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it. As he was destroying, the Lord looked and repented of the disaster, and said to the angel who was destroying, 'It is enough; now restrain your hand' " 1 Chr. 21:15 so that Jerusalem was not totally destroyed as it could have been; to Adam God commanded, "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" Gen. 2:17; etc.

33 - God Says What He Wants to Do, But Can’t or Doesn’t Do.
Jesus said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets... How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood... but you were not willing!" Luke 13:34; "Come now [Moses], I will send you to Pharaoh..." But Moses said to God, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh..." So [God] said, "I will certainly be with you. ...you shall come... to the king of Egypt; and you shall say to him... 'let us go...' " ... Then Moses said... "O my Lord, I am not eloquent... I am slow of speech..." So the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes... the seeing...? Have not I, the Lord? Now therefore, go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall say." But he said, "O my Lord, please send by the hand of whomever else You may send." So the anger of the Lord was kindled against Moses, and He said: “Is not Aaron the Levite your brother? I know that he can speak well. ... Now you shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth. ... So he shall be your spokesman... And Aaron spoke all the words which the Lord had spoken to Moses. Ex. 3:10-12, 18; 4:10-16, 30 and thereafter 68 times then the Bible mentions "Moses and Aaron"; "the Lord met him and sought to kill him" Ex. 4:24 but after Moses' wife resentfully circumcised their son God let her husband go; God said He would destroy the nation of Israel and start over with Moses Ex. 32:9-14; the wicked "limited the Holy One of Israel" from doing what He otherwise would have done Ps. 78:41; to have Ezekiel eat gross bread Ezek. 4:12; God says, "I sought for a man among them... but I found no one" Ezek. 22:30. [We'll be adding Jer. 18/Rom. 9 to this category, when the Potter (God) wanted to build a vessel for honor but made it again into another vessel, of dishonor.]


God does whatever He wants amongst men Dan 4:35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

And this thread is about limited atonement.
 

JudgeRightly

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God does whatever He wants amongst men

Yes, God can accomplish whatever He wants.

But Scripture shows that sometimes He is limited by man's actions, particularly Israel's, that would make Him unjust if He did that which He said He would do.

Dan 4:35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Why are you putting scripture against scripture?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Yes, God can accomplish whatever He wants.

But Scripture shows that sometimes He is limited by man's actions, particularly Israel's, that would make Him unjust if He did that which He said He would do.



Why are you putting scripture against scripture?
I Just quoted a scripture. Theres no contradiction. God does what He wills.
 

JudgeRightly

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I Just quoted a scripture.

And I quoted at least a hundred that are contrary to your position.

Theres no contradiction.

I agree. Yet you seem to think that I'm wrong, yet you're right, by quoting that verse.

God does what He wills.

And sometimes what He wills cannot be accomplished immediately, due to man's actions.
 

beloved57

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And I quoted at least a hundred that are contrary to your position.



I agree. Yet you seem to think that I'm wrong, yet you're right, by quoting that verse.



And sometimes what He wills cannot be accomplished immediately, due to man's actions.
They contrary in your mind.
 

JudgeRightly

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They contrary in your mind.

No, B57, they're not.

You seem to think that quoting one verse makes me quoting a hundred verses that show what I claimed makes me the one in error, as if Scripture can be put against itself.

I'm telling you right now, your verse does NOTHING to show me to be in error.
 

beloved57

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No, B57, they're not.

You seem to think that quoting one verse makes me quoting a hundred verses that show what I claimed makes me the one in error, as if Scripture can be put against itself.

I'm telling you right now, your verse does NOTHING to show me to be in error.
It doesnt matter, one verse or 100 verses, the word of God doesnt contradict.
 

JudgeRightly

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It doesnt matter, one verse or 100 verses, the word of God doesnt contradict.

Yes, that's what I'm saying, B57. But that's not ALL I'm saying. I'm also saying that you seem to think I'm wrong and you're right, and that quoting a single Bible verse proves me to be wrong. Remember, YOU quoted a single verse in response to me quoting many to counter my claim (which I was establishing with scripture) that man sometimes limits God in what He can do, not me.

Scripture states in no uncertain terms that God is sometimes limited by His Creation, yet that He can always accomplish His will, because He is patient and longsuffering.

That's not Marke saying that, that's Scripture saying that.

Posts like this one:

So you limit Gods power, thats incredible.

... are just you shifting the responsibility to understand what is being said away from yourself.
 

marke

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I Just quoted a scripture. Theres no contradiction. God does what He wills.
God does what He wills and men do what they will, often doing those things that are not God's will. David was a man after God's own heart but David once refused to do God's will as he was told and instead numbered the people, angering God, and resulting in the deaths of many Jews.

1 Chron. 21
4 Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab. Wherefore Joab departed, and went throughout all Israel, and came to Jerusalem.

5 And Joab gave the sum of the number of the people unto David. And all they of Israel were a thousand thousand and an hundred thousand men that drew sword: and Judah was four hundred threescore and ten thousand men that drew sword.

6 But Levi and Benjamin counted he not among them: for the king's word was abominable to Joab.

7 And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel.

8 And David said unto God, I have sinned greatly, because I have done this thing: but now, I beseech thee, do away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
 

beloved57

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Limited Atonement is truth because Christ died only for Gods elect, or Sheep Jn 10:11

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

And of course the Sheep doesnt mean the whole human race or everyone without exception. It does refer to them which are the elect according to the foreknowledge of God 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The sprinkling of the Blood refers to His death, when He shed His Blood for them.
 

marke

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Limited Atonement is truth because Christ died only for Gods elect, or Sheep Jn 10:11

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

And of course the Sheep doesnt mean the whole human race or everyone without exception. It does refer to them which are the elect according to the foreknowledge of God 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The sprinkling of the Blood refers to His death, when He shed His Blood for them.
Five-pointed revision of God's word:

John 10:11 - I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives his life for only those he has specially chosen to be nice to for no special reason and to hell with everyone else.
 

beloved57

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The death of Christ is limited to the sons or children of God Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Because they are children God sends the Spirit in their hearts to seal them Gal 4:4-6

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

But all will not receive the Spirit Jn 14:16-17


16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Receiving the Spirit is proof Christ died for you. Acts 10:47


Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
 

beloved57

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Did Christ die for those represented in this world Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
 

beloved57

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Did Jesus Christ die for them which its written Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 

Hoping

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Banned
The death of Christ is limited to the sons or children of God Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Because they are children God sends the Spirit in their hearts to seal them Gal 4:4-6

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

But all will not receive the Spirit Jn 14:16-17


16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Receiving the Spirit is proof Christ died for you. Acts 10:47


Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Thank God anybody can become "born of God".
 
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