Limited atonement !

[Derf]

I am not following. Do you think some sinners are born saved?

All Calvinists believe all that will be saved were determined to be saved before they ever existed. There was never a time in their lives when they were in danger of losing their eternal lives. Thus, if they were never in peril of their eternal lives, they didn't need to be saved. That might be good news, but it doesn't matter if they ever hear that good news--the hearing or not hearing it is inconsequential. And they aren't "saved by grace", they're "preserved by decree". Which isn't the gospel.

 

[beloved57]

derf

Thus, if they were never in peril of their eternal lives, they didn't need to be saved.

Faulty thinking. They needed to be save from their sins since there are others who shall not be saved from their sins. They were saved by Gods choice of them not to be punished for their sins, and that choice was determined before the foundation. Also the choice to save them from their sins was based on a just ground, the Blood of Christ, slain [in the purpose of God] from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This way of Salvation from sin for Gods Elect was forordained before the foundation of the world 1 Pet 1:19-20

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Sure they were never in peril of going to hell, but it was based on a just ground, the blood of Christ, hence showing that they needed to be saved

Also, the elect need to be saved spiritually since we are born dead in trespasses and sins, and are alienated from God spiritually, and reside in darkness and ignorance, all of that is the result of sin, yet Christ saves HIS PEOPLE from their sins, based upon a Just ground !

 

[JudgeRightly]

Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Sorry, but this isn't saying that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, no matter how much you claim it is.

The Lamb wasn't slain at the foundation of the world, nor was He being slain since the foundation of the world.

Another way to say what John wrote in that verse is this:

"The Book of Life written in from the foundation of the world, which belongs to the Lamb slain."

The name of the book is "The Book of Life."
It's been written in from the foundation of the world.
It belongs to the Lamb who was slain.

The way you want it to read has the Lamb, Christ, being slain from the foundation of the earth, which is contrary to Scripture:

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, - 1 Peter 3:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Peter3:18&version=NKJV

The Greek word for "once" used here:

Strong's g530 - Lexical: ἅπαξ - Transliteration: hapax - Part of Speech: Adverb - Phonetic Spelling: hap'-ax - Definition: once, once for all. - Origin: Probably from hapas; one (or a single) time (numerically or conclusively). - Usage: once. - Translated as (count): once (12), at one time (1), once for all (1).

 

[beloved57]

jr

Sorry, but this isn't saying that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world

Yes it is from Gods Eternal Perspective, see with God its like this Rom 4:17

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

God called Abraham a Father even before Abraham had any kids, and while childless.

 

[JudgeRightly]

jr

If you're going to quote me, do me the favor of using the built-in quote function of the site please.

Yes it is from Gods Eternal Perspective,

This is called begging the question.

You haven't established "God's Eternal Perspective" to be a fact, and I literally just showed you why it couldn't mean anything other than what I said above, because your position contradicts other scripture.

see with God its like this Rom 4:17

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

God called Abraham a Father even before Abraham had any kids, and while childless.

So what?

Showing one passage where God knows something about the future does not prove that God knows EVERYTHING about the future.

 

[Derf]

derf



Faulty thinking. They needed to be save from their sins since there are others who shall not be saved from their sins. They were saved by Gods choice of them not to be punished for their sins, and that choice was determined before the foundation. Also the choice to save them from their sins was based on a just ground, the Blood of Christ, slain [in the purpose of God] from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This way of Salvation from sin for Gods Elect was forordained before the foundation of the world 1 Pet 1:19-20

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Sure they were never in peril of going to hell, but it was based on a just ground, the blood of Christ, hence showing that they needed to be saved

Also, the elect need to be saved spiritually since we are born dead in trespasses and sins, and are alienated from God spiritually, and reside in darkness and ignorance, all of that is the result of sin, yet Christ saves HIS PEOPLE from their sins, based upon a Just ground !

Faulty wording. They might have needed it in some way, but they were never lost. I don't think they were born "spiritually dead", but it doesn't matter, because of your quote to JR:

God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Thus, because God was going to save them, they were never lost, but always saved from God's point of view, which is the subject of this thread.

 

[Derf]

If you're going to quote me, do me the favor of using the built-in quote function of the site please.



This is called begging the question.

You haven't established "God's Eternal Perspective" to be a fact, and I literally just showed you why it couldn't mean anything other than what I said above, because your position contradicts other scripture.



So what?

Showing one passage where God knows something about the future does not prove that God knows EVERYTHING about the future.

While I don't agree with B57's "eternal perspective", he's right about Jesus being slain from the foundation of the world, and the reason why the language is consistent. God promised that the seed of the woman would crush the serpent's head, and that His heel would be bruised.

 

[JudgeRightly]

While I don't agree with B57's "eternal perspective", he's right about Jesus being slain from the foundation of the world, and the reason why the language is consistent.

Wrong.

Bad Translations: . . . - "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" at Revelation 13:8 can be corrected (as at the NIV footnote) by cross-referencing the passage with Revelation 17:8. For the Bible teaches that "only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life" (Rev. 21:27) shall be saved, and that God could save Old Testament believers because He looked forward to the cross, and He can save believers now because He looks backward to the cross. So in the Old Testament God looked forward and in the last two millennia He looks backward to that wonderful and yet terrible time. However, if Christ had been slain previously, before the foundation of the world, then there would have been no need for the righteous dead to wait in Abraham's Bosom "until the death of the one who is high priest in those days" (symbolizing Christ). The parallel passage at Revelation 17:8 shows that the qualifier does not apply to the slaying of Christ but to the wicked, "whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." This means that these evil men were not believers who had fallen away, but that their names were NEVER written in the book. (A similar construct in Jeremiah 2:32, "My people have forgotten Me days without number", does not mean that these unbelievers were infinitely old; rather, like all cultures, the Hebrews used the figure hyperbole, as in Rev. 13 and 17 and Jer. 2, simply to emphasize the lengthy duration of the current situation. See also Jer. 17:12 about the Jewish temple existing "from the beginning".) Revelation 13:8 can even be seen as giving the title and subtitle of The Book of Life – Of the Lamb Slain. https://kgov.com/time

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. - Revelation 17:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation17:8&version=NKJV

Again, the Book of Life is the title of the book.
The names of the wicked have not been written in the book since (from) the foundation of the world.
The book belongs to the Lamb slain.

God promised that the seed of the woman would crush the serpent's head, and that His heel would be bruised.

Which isn't saying that Christ was crucified at that time, which is what B57 wants it to say, because it supports his "eternal perspective" belief.

 

[beloved57]

He died for many, not all

for by his righteousness many {not all} were justified, {Is.53:11,} because he bare or suffered for their iniquities;

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isa 53:12

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Heb 9:28

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.​

 

[Right Divider]

He died for many, not all

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 KJV
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: [15] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 

[beloved57]

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 KJV
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: [15] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Thats all of the many. See the word many denotes a totality of a large number, though not all

 

[Right Divider]

Thats all of the many.

That's retarded.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Thats all of the many. See the word many denotes a totality of a large number, though not all

In order to be a Calvinist like B57, one has to blatantly deny what the Bible clearly says, and insist that it says and means something completely different than what it says.

 

[beloved57]

That's retarded.

Hes talking about all of the chosen and called of God at Corinth1 Cor 1:24-27

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

In the original in Vs 24 its the called with the definite article, so Paul isnt speaking about all without exception in 2 Cor 5:14, all the chosen/called, the Church 1 Cor 1:1-2

Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

 

[beloved57]

Christs Death is limited to them that are the called !

Heb 9:12-15

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

It was Gods purpose in Christs Death that certain people might receive Eternal Life, or Eternal Inheritance, not everyone, but " they which are called" !

Now the called in Vs 15 are a specific, definite people since the writer uses the definite article for the called ! All without exception are not the called.

There are a specific group of people in this world that the called, Rom 8:28

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

See " them that are the called here" must be distinguished from all others

1 Cor 1:23-24

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

See how the called here are distinguished, set apart from the others, whether they be jews of gentiles, the called are set apart people from the rest of the world. Paul writes to the same Corinithians earlier 1 Cor 1:1-2
Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

The called have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, that is set apart from the rest of the world, and so it is for all for whom Christ died. Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body/death of Jesus Christ/ once for all.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Christs Death is limited to them that are the called !

Heb 9:12-15

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

It was Gods purpose in Christs Death that certain people might receive Eternal Life, or Eternal Inheritance, not everyone, but " they which are called" !

Now the called in Vs 15 are a specific, definite people since the writer uses the definite article for the called ! All without exception are not the called.

There are a specific group of people in this world that the called, Rom 8:28

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

See " them that are the called here" must be distinguished from all others

1 Cor 1:23-24

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

See how the called here are distinguished, set apart from the others, whether they be jews of gentiles, the called are set apart people from the rest of the world. Paul writes to the same Corinithians earlier 1 Cor 1:1-2
Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

The called have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, that is set apart from the rest of the world, and so it is for all for whom Christ died. Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body/death of Jesus Christ/ once for all.

Quit putting God in a box.

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

He died for all of mankind, not just some.

 

[marke]

Nevertheless man by nature cant and dont come to God, hates God.

You suggest that God designed for most modern humans to be born dead and incapable of responding to the Holy Spirit's enlightenment, possibly because God intends for those untold hundreds of millions of sinners to go to hell and be burnt in wrath for refusing to respond to the Holy Spirit. That portrays God to be stupid, hateful, and totally unreasonable. God does not delight in the death of unrepentant sinners. No sinner who later rejects God, resulting in becoming more depraved, can be said to have been totally depraved, to begin with.

Romans 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Luke 11:26
Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

God is the Potter. Humans are the clay. Did God make the clay marred, to begin with, or was there something in the clay that was responsible for ruining God's original design or desire for the clay? The Bible does not say that God's original design for the clay was to be marred, but that the clay became marred as He worked it. Calvinists need to examine their reasoning and correct their misunderstandings and misinterpretations of Scripture.

Jeremiah 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

 

[beloved57]

You suggest that God designed for most modern humans to be born dead and incapable of responding to the Holy Spirit's enlightenment, possibly because God intends for those untold hundreds of millions of sinners to go to hell and be burnt in wrath for refusing to respond to the Holy Spirit. That portrays God to be stupid, hateful, and totally unreasonable. God does not delight in the death of unrepentant sinners. No sinner who later rejects God, resulting in becoming more depraved, can be said to have been totally depraved, to begin with.

Romans 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Luke 11:26
Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

God is the Potter. Humans are the clay. Did God make the clay marred, to begin with, or was there something in the clay that was responsible for ruining God's original design or desire for the clay? The Bible does not say that God's original design for the clay was to be marred, but that the clay became marred as He worked it. Calvinists need to examine their reasoning and correct their misunderstandings and misinterpretations of Scripture.

Jeremiah 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Post 255 did you read and understand it ? Its about the Called, whom Christ exclusively and purposefully died for, to obtain their inheritance which is eternal life.

 

[marke]

Post 255 did you read and understand it ? Its about the Called, whom Christ exclusively and purposefully died for, to obtain their inheritance which is eternal life.

Post #257, did you understand it?

 

[Derf]

Wrong.

Bad Translations: . . . - "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" at Revelation 13:8 can be corrected (as at the NIV footnote) by cross-referencing the passage with Revelation 17:8. For the Bible teaches that "only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life" (Rev. 21:27) shall be saved, and that God could save Old Testament believers because He looked forward to the cross, and He can save believers now because He looks backward to the cross. So in the Old Testament God looked forward and in the last two millennia He looks backward to that wonderful and yet terrible time. However, if Christ had been slain previously, before the foundation of the world, then there would have been no need for the righteous dead to wait in Abraham's Bosom "until the death of the one who is high priest in those days" (symbolizing Christ). The parallel passage at Revelation 17:8 shows that the qualifier does not apply to the slaying of Christ but to the wicked, "whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." This means that these evil men were not believers who had fallen away, but that their names were NEVER written in the book. (A similar construct in Jeremiah 2:32, "My people have forgotten Me days without number", does not mean that these unbelievers were infinitely old; rather, like all cultures, the Hebrews used the figure hyperbole, as in Rev. 13 and 17 and Jer. 2, simply to emphasize the lengthy duration of the current situation. See also Jer. 17:12 about the Jewish temple existing "from the beginning".) Revelation 13:8 can even be seen as giving the title and subtitle of The Book of Life – Of the Lamb Slain. https://kgov.com/time

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. - Revelation 17:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation17:8&version=NKJV

Again, the Book of Life is the title of the book.
The names of the wicked have not been written in the book since (from) the foundation of the world.
The book belongs to the Lamb slain.



Which isn't saying that Christ was crucified at that time, which is what B57 wants it to say, because it supports his "eternal perspective" belief.

I didn't say he was crucified at that time. But as B57's citation pointed out,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were

Meaning that when God promises something He often acts as if those things were already fulfilled, as long as they aren't contingent on something else. Christ's death was promised in Gen 3, but wasn't fulfilled until AD 30 (or so)--no contingencies, so it was a foregone conclusion. Thus it is legitimate to say Christ was slain from (not at) the foundation of the world.

But everybody was blotted out of the book of life at the time Adam sinned, only to be written back in on the occasion of their belief in Christ.