Limited atonement !

JudgeRightly

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There are ample amount of scripture that indicate that the extent of Christs Redemptive Death was limited to Gods Elect/Sheep !

Jesus again says whom He specifically died for:

Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

The good Shepherd lays down His life in behalf of the sheep. Are all men the sheep of Christ? The honest answer is no, for most men do not know Christ, and Christ says that His sheep know Him John 10:14. and Christs knows His Sheep, but some He declares He never knew Matt 7:23 Further, Jesus specifically told the Jews who did not believe in Him, “but you do not believe because you are not my sheep” John 10:26. Notice that in contrast with the idea that we believe and therefore make ourselves Christ’s sheep, Jesus says that they do not believe because they are not His sheep! Whether one is of Christ’s sheep is the Father’s choice (John 6:37, 8:47), not the sheep’s!

"Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Red and yellow, black and white
They are precious in His sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world

Jesus died for all the children
All the children of the world
Red and yellow, black and white
They are precious in His sight
Jesus died for all the children of the world

Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Red and yellow, black and white
They are precious in His sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world

Jesus loves the little children of the world"
 

marke

Well-known member
There are ample amount of scripture that indicate that the extent of Christs Redemptive Death was limited to Gods Elect/Sheep !

Jesus again says whom He specifically died for:

Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

The good Shepherd lays down His life in behalf of the sheep. Are all men the sheep of Christ? The honest answer is no, for most men do not know Christ, and Christ says that His sheep know Him John 10:14. and Christs knows His Sheep, but some He declares He never knew Matt 7:23 Further, Jesus specifically told the Jews who did not believe in Him, “but you do not believe because you are not my sheep” John 10:26. Notice that in contrast with the idea that we believe and therefore make ourselves Christ’s sheep, Jesus says that they do not believe because they are not His sheep! Whether one is of Christ’s sheep is the Father’s choice (John 6:37, 8:47), not the sheep’s!
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, saved and lost alike. But sinners who reject Jesus as Savior will not be saved.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Scripture is clear that Christ died for and solely loved His Church, His Spiritual Bride Eph 5:2,25-27

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
There was complete unity in the Godhead determining who Jesus Christ was to die a Surety for 1 Jn 5:6-8

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Jesus Christ died in behalf of those that the Father had, from eternity, decreed to save. There is absolute oneness of mind between the Father and the Son and the Spirit in saving God’s Elect. The Father chose and decrees their salvation, the Son dies in their place, and the Spirit sanctifies them setting them apart unto belief of the truth and conforms them to the image of Christ. This is the symmetrical witness of Scripture.
 

expos4ever

Well-known member
Obviously, the scriptural arguments here are complex. However, and with clear disclosure that I do not believe in predestination, I want to raise the uncomfortable possibility that a deeply unhealthy, tribalistic, quality, that is perhaps baked into our DNA, may undergird the attraction of some people to this doctrine.

History, as well as the current world landscape, suggests that human belngs like to see themselves as a part of a privileged group. It is the old "good us" vs "bad them" way of thinking. To the extent that we have this unhealthy way of looking at the world, we are, naturally enough, drawn to a doctrine such as predestination that puts "us" in the saved group and "them" in the "condemned" group.

Now, of course, defenders of predestination will fall all over themselves to claim that they do not "deserve" to be in the group of those elected to salvation. And, of course, they have some supporting Biblical texts. But, it is really hard to make sense of the notion that God "elects" some with seemingly no intelligible grounds - just "according to His will". I politely suggest that we can make no sense of such a position and, to be frank, we have to believe, although we deny it, that there is something about us that merits our election, just as there is something about the condemned that merits their condemnation.

It all seems extremely suspicious.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Banned
Obviously, the scriptural arguments here are complex. However, and with clear disclosure that I do not believe in predestination, I want to raise the uncomfortable possibility that a deeply unhealthy, tribalistic, quality, that is perhaps baked into our DNA, may undergird the attraction of some people to this doctrine.

History, as well as the current world landscape, suggests that human belngs like to see themselves as a part of a privileged group. It is the old "good us" vs "bad them" way of thinking. To the extent that we have this unhealthy way of looking at the world, we are, naturally enough, drawn to a doctrine such as predestination that puts "us" in the saved group and "them" in the "condemned" group.

Now, of course, defenders of predestination will fall all over themselves to claim that they do not "deserve" to be in the group of those elected to salvation. And, of course, they have some supporting Biblical texts. But, it is really hard to make sense of the notion that God "elects" some with seemingly no intelligible grounds - just "according to His will". I politely suggest that we can make no sense of such a position and, to be frank, we have to believe, although we deny it, that there is something about us that merits our election, just as there is something about the condemned that merits their condemnation.

It all seems extremely suspicious.
That "something" is how we relate to Him.
 

marke

Well-known member
There was complete unity in the Godhead determining who Jesus Christ was to die a Surety for 1 Jn 5:6-8

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Jesus Christ died in behalf of those that the Father had, from eternity, decreed to save. There is absolute oneness of mind between the Father and the Son and the Spirit in saving God’s Elect. The Father chose and decrees their salvation, the Son dies in their place, and the Spirit sanctifies them setting them apart unto belief of the truth and conforms them to the image of Christ. This is the symmetrical witness of Scripture.
Why would God create sinners incapable of repenting and seeking salvation if He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked?

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
 

expos4ever

Well-known member
That "something" is how we relate to Him.
Thanks for reading my post and answering. The problem I have is that I do not see how we can interpret "how we relate to Him" in a way that does not ultimately boil down to us being somehow "better" than the other person.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Banned
Thanks for reading my post and answering. The problem I have is that I do not see how we can interpret "how we relate to Him" in a way that does not ultimately boil down to us being somehow "better" than the other person.
Look at it this way...are adulterers and liars better than monogamous truth tellers?
Of course not, so those who do obey God, or want to obey God, are better than their opposites.
Who is going to be doing the judging on the last day?

If there will be no judgement, who cares what we do?
Survival of the fittest...will be our outcome here on earth.
 
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beloved57

Well-known member
Jesus Christs sacrificial atoning death wasn't for all individuals but for all His People Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
 

marke

Well-known member
Jesus Christs sacrificial atoning death wasn't for all individuals but for all His People Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Perhaps if the wording had been more to your liking you would have a better case?

Calvanistic version of Matt 1:21 - "...thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save none but his chosen few from their sins."

God's version:

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Christians believe in Limited Atonement. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the Great Shepherd of the Sheep died for and redeemed God’s elect, all the elect, and only the elect. He shed his blood for those who are actually saved by his blood. Now in some sense we all believe in a limited atonement for instance:

The arminian believes that the atonement is limited in power and efficacy, that its power and efficacy is limited by the will, and choice, and decision of man, that man by his act of faith makes the blood of Christ effectual to himself.
Christians believe that our Lord’s atonement is limited not in merit, power, and efficacy (There is no limit to that!), but in its purpose, in its intention, in its design, in its scope. Christ died for God’s elect, made reconciliation/propitiation for God’s elect redeemed God’s elect, obtained eternal salvation for God’s elect, all God’s elect, and only God’s elect or sheep!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
All the scripture, every chapter, every verse, every statement, every type and picture of redemption and atonement given in Gods word, Old Testament and New, limits the death of Christ it to a specific people.

Eph 5:25-32

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Particular atonement is plain here:

Christ loved only His Church, He gave Himself only for His Church,

By His death for His Church He sanctifies His Church, He died with this specific People in sight.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Banned
Christians believe in Limited Atonement. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the Great Shepherd of the Sheep died for and redeemed God’s elect, all the elect, and only the elect. He shed his blood for those who are actually saved by his blood. Now in some sense we all believe in a limited atonement for instance:

The arminian believes that the atonement is limited in power and efficacy, that its power and efficacy is limited by the will, and choice, and decision of man, that man by his act of faith makes the blood of Christ effectual to himself.
Christians believe that our Lord’s atonement is limited not in merit, power, and efficacy (There is no limit to that!), but in its purpose, in its intention, in its design, in its scope. Christ died for God’s elect, made reconciliation/propitiation for God’s elect redeemed God’s elect, obtained eternal salvation for God’s elect, all God’s elect, and only God’s elect or sheep!
Salvation is out there for all.
But we must act on it.
It is our God given choice.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Banned
All the scripture, every chapter, every verse, every statement, every type and picture of redemption and atonement given in Gods word, Old Testament and New, limits the death of Christ it to a specific people.

Eph 5:25-32

Particular atonement is plain here:
Christ loved only His Church, He gave Himself only for His Church,
By His death for His Church He sanctifies His Church, He died with this specific People in sight.
I thank God for the chance to elect to be in that church.
 

marke

Well-known member
Christians believe in Limited Atonement. We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the Great Shepherd of the Sheep died for and redeemed God’s elect, all the elect, and only the elect. He shed his blood for those who are actually saved by his blood. Now in some sense we all believe in a limited atonement for instance:

The arminian believes that the atonement is limited in power and efficacy, that its power and efficacy is limited by the will, and choice, and decision of man, that man by his act of faith makes the blood of Christ effectual to himself.
Christians believe that our Lord’s atonement is limited not in merit, power, and efficacy (There is no limit to that!), but in its purpose, in its intention, in its design, in its scope. Christ died for God’s elect, made reconciliation/propitiation for God’s elect redeemed God’s elect, obtained eternal salvation for God’s elect, all God’s elect, and only God’s elect or sheep!
Those proud religious people who love to think God specially selected them to love from the masses of unworthy despicable sinners predestined by God to burn in the fires of hell cannot quote scriptures that say God delights to burn sinners in hell.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Those proud religious people who love to think God specially selected them to love from the masses of unworthy despicable sinners predestined by God to burn in the fires of hell cannot quote scriptures that say God delights to burn sinners in hell.
Do you understand that some limit the atonement in its power and efficacy to save?
 

marke

Well-known member
Do you understand that some limit the atonement in its power and efficacy to save?
I've no doubt that there are those who think God's power to save is limited, whether in extent or in scope in those who become saved or in God's ability to reach to those He seeks to save but who refuse.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I've no doubt that there are those who think God's power to save is limited, whether in extent or in scope in those who become saved or in God's ability to reach to those He seeks to save but who refuse.
Do you understand that some limit the atonement in its power and efficacy to save? Who can refuse Gods Power and Efficacy ?
 

marke

Well-known member
Do you understand that some limit the atonement in its power and efficacy to save? Who can refuse Gods Power and Efficacy ?
Are you asking who can refuse to do God's will? Not Jesus, but all sinners refuse God's will at times in their lives.

Matthew 26:42
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
 
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