God never justifies the guilty so how say you He does? Unless you believe the elect are all born innocent.
Limited atonement !
- Thread starter beloved57
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beloved57
Well-known member
Yes works, same thing !
beloved57
Well-known member
"The Extent of Christ's Absolute Satisfaction is established by the inseparable connection between the gift of Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit as these two gifts, the most excellent which God has bestowed on us, are always in Scripture joined together as cause and effect, they must be of equal extent and go together; so that the Son is not given to acquire salvation for any others than those to whom the Spirit was given to apply the salvation procured. No reason can be assigned why the gift of the Son should be more extensive than the gift of the Holy Spirit. It is plain that the Holy Spirit is given to none but the elect.." - Francis Turretin
Scripture to collaborate this blessed truth
Gal 3:13-14
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 4:4-6
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Those who Christ died for with Him God gives all things Rom 8:32
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 5:5
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Scripture to collaborate this blessed truth
Gal 3:13-14
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 4:4-6
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Those who Christ died for with Him God gives all things Rom 8:32
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Rom 5:5
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
You won't find that idea in scripture.
Especially after the council in Jerusalem.
They never said anything about believing, hearing, having faith, (water) baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, reception of the Holy Ghost, or enduring faithfully till the end as being unnecessary, as circumcision, feast keeping, and dietary laws are.
In fact they added a few more requirements. (Acts 15:20)
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God gives grace to those who love and obey God. God withholds grace from those who reject God and obey not His word.
God gives grace to those who love Him, not those who think graces is a reward for human goodness and good works.
beloved57
Well-known member
Works is anything you do to get God to save you.
Which is why faith isn't a work. It's not "done to get God to save you." Faith is simply recognizing that you CANNOT do anything, and putting your trust in the one who CAN save you.
beloved57
Well-known member
Faith expresses itself in believing, which is an act of the mind/heart of a person. Now any act is an work. The word for work the Spirit inspired the writers of scripture to use in the NT is ergon which means:
- any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
- an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
Believing is accomplished by the mind, so its a work ! Now if say God saved you because you believed, you are saying God saved me because of my work. Its nowhere around it. I have a thread on this matter going into more details.
Is believing/faith a work ?
The answer is absolutely yes. If we agree with the overall definition of work according to the greek word for work ergon: See strongs # 2041: business, employment, that which any one is occupied that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking any product whatever, any thing...
theologyonline.com
I find it unfathomable that obedience to God is not permissible.
beloved57
Well-known member
Who said that ?
If I refuse to steal, so I will be found faithful at my judgement on the last day, my refusal to disobey God becomes my downfall...in the doctrine of some.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
We've been over this before, B57.
It ended with you ignoring what I was saying.
beloved57
Well-known member
You gone off to a different subject.
P19 cv v .
Loving God is not a work and failing to love God results in eternal damnation.
Loving God is not a work and God demands that sinners love Him if they want His mercy.
Daniel 9:4
And I prayed unto the Lord my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
Proverbs 28:13
He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
beloved57
Well-known member
There are ample amount of scripture that indicate that the extent of Christs Redemptive Death was limited to Gods Elect/Sheep !
Matt 20:28
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
The many are the chosen seed of God that Isaiah mentions Isa 53:10-11
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Matt 20:28
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
The many are the chosen seed of God that Isaiah mentions Isa 53:10-11
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
glorydaz
Well-known member
That is referring to the Jews. Read what it says.
Romans 5:11
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Interpretation: God's plan of redemption was to provide a means whereby He could forgive the sins of sinners without being unjust, not so He could forgive sinners for no reason.
God had to provide salvation for all who would believe God so He could justly forgive those who willingly received the word of truth at the witness of the Holy Ghost.
beloved57
Well-known member
There are ample amount of scripture that indicate that the extent of Christs Redemptive Death was limited to Gods Elect/Sheep !
Jesus again says whom He specifically died for:
Jn 10:11,15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
The good Shepherd lays down His life in behalf of the sheep. Are all men the sheep of Christ? The honest answer is no, for most men do not know Christ, and Christ says that His sheep know Him John 10:14. and Christs knows His Sheep, but some He declares He never knew Matt 7:23 Further, Jesus specifically told the Jews who did not believe in Him, “but you do not believe because you are not my sheep” John 10:26. Notice that in contrast with the idea that we believe and therefore make ourselves Christ’s sheep, Jesus says that they do not believe because they are not His sheep! Whether one is of Christ’s sheep is the Father’s choice (John 6:37, 8:47), not the sheep’s!
Jesus again says whom He specifically died for:
Jn 10:11,15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
The good Shepherd lays down His life in behalf of the sheep. Are all men the sheep of Christ? The honest answer is no, for most men do not know Christ, and Christ says that His sheep know Him John 10:14. and Christs knows His Sheep, but some He declares He never knew Matt 7:23 Further, Jesus specifically told the Jews who did not believe in Him, “but you do not believe because you are not my sheep” John 10:26. Notice that in contrast with the idea that we believe and therefore make ourselves Christ’s sheep, Jesus says that they do not believe because they are not His sheep! Whether one is of Christ’s sheep is the Father’s choice (John 6:37, 8:47), not the sheep’s!
beloved57
Well-known member
Negative, Christ gave His life a ransom for more than just jewish people, that is a common fallacy, Rev 5:9
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed[by ransom] us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Christs ransom has no respect of race !