Justification of Eternal Punishment

Timotheos

New member
they just want you to suffer
I know, that is the only explanation for the way that they reject what the Bible says and insert eternal suffering instead of what the Bible says. Their strong desire for the torture of others clouds their thinking and colors everything they see to fifty shades of torture.



what more could christianity be?
I would like Current Christianity to reflect the truth of the Bible.
Christians could be loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, gentle, and able to control themselves.

But the people who defend eternal torture are too full of hate to ever allow that.
 

Timotheos

New member
God doesn't desire to save the unrepentant wicked, He wants to punish them.

I agree with Him

You are one sick puppy.

You don't agree with God. Haven't you read in the Bible where it says that God is not willing that any should perish, but for all to come to repentance? 2 Peter 3:9

This doesn't only show that God actually does desire to save the unrepentant, it also shows the fate of those who refuse to repent, they perish.

You are wrong on two counts, your error that God doesn't desire to save the lost and your error that God tortures the unrepentant.

Your sick desire for the torture of others clouds your thinking. You and I need to have a talk.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
All it is, is a teaching about the inward conflict that Romans sevens, and Galatians shows, the bondage of the material/flesh/lower conscience/ animal instinct world verses the freedom of the light/spirit/higher conscience world that takes place in the mind.

The outward Saviour motif has caused all this confusion, and is based on the mentality of the first born of the flesh under the bondage of the laws of nature Matt 11:11, at its best it is still least in the Divine world that isn't observable Luke 17:20-21, and leaves one confused when walking by that sight Luke 7:20.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
All it is, is a teaching about the inward conflict that Romans sevens, and Galatians shows, the bondage of the material/flesh/lower conscience/ animal instinct world verses the freedom of the light/spirit/higher conscience world that takes place in the mind.

The outward Saviour motif has caused all this confusion, and is based on the mentality of the first born of the flesh under the bondage of the laws of nature Matt 11:11, at its best it is still least in the Divine world that isn't observable Luke 17:20-21, and leaves one confused when walking by that sight Luke 7:20.

You make no sense. Does that bother you?
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Yes, i am comparing self inflicted torment, to someone unrepentant in prison for life.

Then it's still an incredibly stupid comparison. People know that committing a crime can result in incarceration as it's beyond doubt whether it be life or a few weeks depending on the offence. Eternal suffering is not self inflicted, it's imposed, unless you think that everyone who doesn't arrive at the same belief as you have are fully aware and gladly walk into such a state regardless? You have any idea how nuts and galling that is to anyone with an ounce of logic and empathy?

No, i see them as people who refuse to admit they are sinners and bend their knee to their maker and receive Christ.

Oh, do you have some sort of access to all of these people's innermost thoughts or something? Because otherwise you sound insufferably arrogant. How in blazes do you know why people don't believe or have the same faith overall? Are you just gonna reduce every non Christian on the planet to some caricature of pride or something? You think all atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics etc don't 'bend their knee' because they're too rooted in their way? The mind boggles...

Feel free to make up what i think all you want.

What exactly have I made up?
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
You are one sick puppy.

You don't agree with God. Haven't you read in the Bible where it says that God is not willing that any should perish, but for all to come to repentance? 2 Peter 3:9

This doesn't only show that God actually does desire to save the unrepentant, it also shows the fate of those who refuse to repent, they perish.

You are wrong on two counts, your error that God doesn't desire to save the lost and your error that God tortures the unrepentant.

Your sick desire for the torture of others clouds your thinking. You and I need to have a talk.
Revelation 20:11-15 Modern English Version (MEV)

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it. From His face the earth and the heavens fled away, and no place was found for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God. Books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one by his works.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
People know that rejecting Christ = hell. No one will have an excuse.

What do you mean, people know that? How? You are just yet another arrogant person who tries to justify everyone else's suffering to conform to an abhorrent doctrine and hey, you're not the one that suffers eternal torment so hey ho. Callous and cold beyond words.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Revelation 20:11-15 Modern English Version (MEV)

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it. From His face the earth and the heavens fled away, and no place was found for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God. Books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one by his works.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

You do realize this is symbolic right? Unless you think that death is a physical being?

:doh:
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
What do you mean, people know that? How? You are just yet another arrogant person who tries to justify everyone else's suffering to conform to an abhorrent doctrine and hey, you're not the one that suffers eternal torment so hey ho. Callous and cold beyond words.
People know there is an eternity after this
Ecc_3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart

and they know because they are called
Mat_22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

if you reject Jesus salvation
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
What do you mean, people know that? How? You are just yet another arrogant person who tries to justify everyone else's suffering to conform to an abhorrent doctrine and hey, you're not the one that suffers eternal torment so hey ho. Callous and cold beyond words.

Going to say you've never heard the gospel? Have no access to the truth? Never seen or picked up a bible, never been told the good news, never seen any evidence whatever that there even might be a God? Really?
 

Zeke

Well-known member
You make no sense. Does that bother you?

No you're lack of enlightenment doesn't bother me, everyone is on their own time schedule. If you can't fathom that the kingdom of God is within you Luke 17:20-21 then you need to lose the historic dogma and religious cultural chains that have indoctrinated you to the point of blindness spiritually 2Cor 3:6.

You can't even grasp the truth about the surname that in-slaves you either so until that light comes on, you will be living an artificial existence dependent on the system to support you through that name, a paper saint and citizen of this world! not a good place or position to be a mocking bird from.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Going to say you've never heard the gospel? Have no access to the truth? Never seen or picked up a bible, never been told the good news, never seen any evidence whatever that there even might be a God? Really?

What particular "truth" or "good news" would that be exactly? I was in a Pentecostal church for nigh on a year or so some years back so I heard pretty much the same sermon/message nearly every Sunday night for that duration.

'Funny' thing was that there were so many differing opinions as to what constituted 'hell/the lake of fire' that the only consistency was the actual inconsistency on it. You'd think that something of such magnitude and importance would be so clear cut as to leave no room for "opinion" yeh?

Oh, then I had word that a lad I'd known at school had committed suicide a few years earlier when he was 15 and as one member of the church so charitably put it: "He was down there sizzling", so you tell me Angel, was this guy telling the "truth"?

And let's broaden this a bit. There were differences of opinion on all of this just within the same church I was at, so what about the plethora of denominations - from Methodists to Presbyterians, to Calvinists and JW's, Seventh day Adventist's to Quakers etc. Why is there no concrete, set in stone, clear as a cloudless sky broad stroke agreement on just what 'hell/the lake of fire' actually are?! Cos you ain't all got the truth on it, that's for damn sure.

I'll tell you one complete truth. The most vile and contemptible attitudes I've ever encountered have come from those who try to justify such horrid suffering for other people. I'm not saying that everyone who ascribes to eternal suffering are monsters as they aren't but it's no surprise that the belief often brings such callousness to the fore. Don't bother trying to sell it as "truth" to me either thanks.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
What particular "truth" or "good news" would that be exactly?
you know john 3.16

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

'Funny' thing was that there were so many differing opinions as to what constituted 'hell/the lake of fire' that the only consistency was the actual inconsistency on it. You'd think that something of such magnitude and importance would be so clear cut as to leave no room for "opinion" yeh?
God gives you a choice .
God could convince you of all kinds of things but instead has
left it up to you to have faith in him and what he said.

God walked among us once and he gave people a choice then
too and a lot of people chose not to believe Jesus.
Oh, then I had word that a lad I'd known at school had committed suicide a few years earlier when he was 15 and as one member of the church so charitably put it: "He was down there sizzling", so you tell me Angel, was this guy telling the "truth"?
Isa_30:18 Therefore the LORD waits to be gracious to you, and therefore he exalts himself to show mercy to you. For the LORD is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Why is there no concrete, set in stone, clear as a cloudless sky broad stroke agreement on just what 'hell/the lake of fire' actually are?! Cos you ain't all got the truth on it, that's for damn sure.

the lake of fire is a lake of fire
I'll tell you one complete truth. The most vile and contemptible attitudes I've ever encountered have come from those who try to justify such horrid suffering for other people. I'm not saying that everyone who ascribes to eternal suffering are monsters as they aren't but it's no surprise that the belief often brings such callousness to the fore. Don't bother trying to sell it as "truth" to me either thanks.

We cant sell you the truth because you are not interested in the truth
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
you know john 3.16

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

...

John 3:16 For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 7 For GOD sent not HIS Son into the world to condemn the world: but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of GOD. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world. And men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

The proper understanding of these verses depends, first of all, upon the meaning ascribed to the word “world”. May I submit that this word means Adam and all his children? I think that this is in accord with the Greek, as Mr. Vine(#23) states: (the Greek word) “Kosmos is used to denote, by metonymy, the human race, mankind.”

And does GOD love just some of mankind, viz., only the ones living since Jesus came that have heard the gospel? No, HE loves the BC ones too. (Believe it!) Therefore the “world” must include everyone since Adam.

Secondly, proper understanding depends upon the meaning we ascribe to the words “condemned already”. I believe that we must consider the condemnation as being already present before they heard the gospel, which means that they would be under condemnation even before Jesus incarnated.

In other words, Jesus' incarnation did not result in the condemnation of unbelieving men: they were condemned already, viz., they loved the darkness before He came. He came to save them from the condemnation they were under.

Now in verse 18 John says that the reason for the condemnation that was present before He incarnated was unbelief in the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD, that is, unbelief in the Person of Jesus and all that He stands for. Now in regard to this unbelief, something we have to establish is why they do not believe? What is the nature of their faithlessness?

For instance, should we read the verse, “those that believeth not on account of their ignorance in that they have never heard about the Son, are condemned already because they have omitted believing in the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD?” Or should we read the verse, “they that have refused to believe are condemned already because they have refused to believe in the revealed Name of the only begotten Son?”

Now, the first interpretation seems to give an explanation for the condemnation of all those who have never heard about Jesus in this life, that is, their sin is a sin of omission. They have failed to do that which is expected of them and necessary for their salvation. This seems somewhat reasonable but, to believe that some people perish for lack of the knowledge of salvation, one must first deny either the sovereignty of GOD or the infiniteness of HIS love.

Their condemnation on account of their ignorance means that if He loves them and is trying to get the message of HIS Son to them, HE is failing in what HE is attempting to do. Or it means that if HE is able to get HIS message to them, HE does not love them enough to send it.

Therefore, it seems that this idea of their condemnation on account of their ignorant omission of faith is untenable with the revealed attributes of GOD, and we should not interpret Scripture in a way that denies the character of GOD should we?

Well, since the first interpretation is untenable with the attributes of GOD, then we are left with only the second, that is, that the entire unbelieving world is condemned because they have refused (by their choice) to believe in the Name or Person of the Son of GOD.

Now this conclusion regarding the nature of their unbelief leads us to another conclusion: that for there to be a refusal to believe in His Name, there must have been a prior revelation of His Name. In other words, for there to be a rebellion, there must first be a known authority (revealed God) to rebel against.

Now, two things show that there was such a self-attesting revelation given to all men.

First, it is shown by what John says in John 3:19, that the Light has been shown to the world (viz., to Adam and his children) but some men preferred darkness to Him, that is, disbelief to belief, disobedience to obedience as we find in Rom 1. The men he is talking about all refused to believe in the Son. Their sin was not a sin of omission. They had received the self-attesting revelation of the Light, that is, of the Son.

Second, that every unbelieving man in history is included in this rebellious group, that is, that the revelation is universal, is proven by John 1:9 the true Light, which lighteth every man.

From this verse, we can see that every person on Earth has received or seen the Light, that is, Jesus, even those who lived before He came and the gospel was proclaimed.

Now, having established these facts of the universal revelation of His Name and the rebellion of all unbelieving men, we are faced with the question as to when each and every person received the revelation of the Name of the only begotten Son of GOD? Once again so far as this apology is concerned, this question boils down to whether this revelation was received before this life began or whether it was received during this life.

I believe that there are two things that bear witness that this revelation is received before this life begins (and is subsequently forgotten, Rom 1).

The first is the complete absence, before He incarnated, of any unscriptural testimony regarding the name of YHWH's Son. I think that if every BC person received the revelation of His Name in this life, someone would have written “it” down, or at least remembered “it” and talked about “it” to someone else. In other words, I think that the truth about Him would have been fairly well known before He came.

Secondly, I think that John also gives us a fairly strong indication that this revelation was given before life began in John 1:9[/B That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

If every man comes into the world, then every man must exist before he comes into the world. Therefore, I believe that these two things bear witness that the revelation of the name of YHWH's Son that is given to every person, was given before life began.

Well, as you no doubt noticed, this is a fairly drawn out argument. Therefore perhaps a short summary would be of some profit.

First, we saw that the entire unbelieving world was condemned already, that is, even before He came.

Second, we saw that the unbelievers are under condemnation for faithlessness in His Name.

Third, we saw that the sin of omission is untenable with the revealed attributes of GOD and that John 1:9 bears witness that the entire world has received the revelation of His Name.

For these reasons we concluded that the unbelievers' sin was a sin of rebellion rather than a sin of omission, which universal rebellion necessitates a previous universal revelation of His Name.

Finally, in regard to the time of the universal revelation of His Name, we felt first, that the lack of knowledge regarding His name in all of history prior to His incarnation hints strongly at a pre-life revelation, and second, that John 1:9, which says that every man comes into the world, being that it connotes every man's preconception existence, also hints strongly at a pre-life revelation of the name of YHWH's Son.
 

meshak

BANNED
Banned
Unbelieves will not live in lake of fire eternity. They will perish, die.

John 3:16 For GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
you know john 3.16
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

Wasn't there a point where you didn't believe? Else what's the 'good news' exactly? That you're born into a life you had no actual say in and that your ultimate eternal fate is the default setting of torment unless you find the right path?

God gives you a choice .
God could convince you of all kinds of things but instead has
left it up to you to have faith in him and what he said.

God walked among us once and he gave people a choice then
too and a lot of people chose not to believe Jesus.

I have an aversion to pointless sadistic cruelty and suffering. I also have an aversion to doctrines that promote the same. Questioning a religious dogma is not the same thing at all.

Isa_30:18 Therefore the LORD waits to be gracious to you, and therefore he exalts himself to show mercy to you. For the LORD is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him.

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

So what am I supposed to take from this exactly? That it's "justice" that a 15 year old boy is suffering away in some hell realm? Instead of just throwing bible verses about it would be an idea to actually put some input into the discussion yourself if you're going to jump in on a reply to someone else.

the lake of fire is a lake of fire

So, is everything in Revelation literal as well then? :AMR:

We cant sell you the truth because you are not interested in the truth

You're not interested in anything that contradicts a set doctrine it would seem. That isn't the truth so I'd lay off the sound bites.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Wasn't there a point where you didn't believe?
yes
Else what's the 'good news' exactly?
just going to quote a bible verse hope that's ok
Rom_10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
That you're born into a life you had no actual say in and that your ultimate eternal fate is the default setting of torment unless you find the right path?
you have a choice to believe or not
love darkness or light
I have an aversion to pointless sadistic cruelty and suffering.
choose to have faith in Jesus and avoid the consequences of your sin
I also have an aversion to doctrines that promote the same.
it is called justice not "sadistic cruelty and suffering"
Questioning a religious dogma is not the same thing at all.
go ahead question away
So what am I supposed to take from this exactly? That it's "justice" that a 15 year old boy is suffering away in some hell realm?
God will be just
Instead of just throwing bible verses about it would be an idea to actually put some input into the discussion yourself if you're going to jump in on a reply to someone else.
:think:
So, is everything in Revelation literal as well then? :AMR:
you can't tell literal from symbolic
is that what you do with the eternal punishment verses
read them as symbolic and sweep them away ?
You're not interested in anything that contradicts a set doctrine it would seem. That isn't the truth so I'd lay off the sound bites.
not interested in lies are you ?
 
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