Justification of Eternal Punishment

Word based mystic

New member
because the word SEE has multiple dimensions or spiritual connotations that makes the word destroy to mean just the opposite of what the greek and hebrew say it means.. hmm

very, very, weak, weak premise to reverse the meaning of death, destroy, kill, perish and aion.

also still waiting on your apology CR.
 

Word based mystic

New member
max grit.

posting someone else's speculative arguments does little for this thread.

let's get nitty gritty and see what your dialogue is here. Not some other teachers.

the biblical death your revered teacher expounds on is interesting.

He says the biblical death is life.
which actually is a greek, platonism philosophy. Not found in scripture.

He actually puts forth and verifies his perspective as coming from greek philosophy.

He swaps the modern definitions to be unbiblical. but does not understand in this point He proves ECT incorrect.

look at forever. modern dictionaries have changed the original greek and hebrew meaning from being (aion) withing the age of or period of time to incorrectly mean (never ending)

(perish) however has stayed constant in both modern english dictionaries and greek and hebrew meanings. appollumi to ((utterly)) destroy.

modern meaning also is 1.
to die or be destroyed through violence, privation, etc.:
to perish in an earthquake.
2.
to pass away or disappear:
an age of elegance that has forever perished.
3.
to suffer destruction or ruin:
His valuable paintings perished in the fire.
4.
to suffer spiritual death:
Save us, lest we perish.

the consistent theme and multiplicity of scripture that relate the wicked vanishing, cease to be forever, consumed by fire, kill and destroy both body and soul and suffering the 2nd spiritual death brings consistency and punctuation to the fact that

the wicked are not imperishable
are not indestructible
does not have eternal life
do not reside in Christ Who is the (LIFE)
their reward is quite clear no Christ, no eternity, no life.
only in Christ and the (next age) can anyone have these things.

the burning eternal fire does not regenerate that which it destroys.
The burning fire will do what it was meant to do. cause to perish, consume, destroy, kill, cease to be forever, cause to vanish away.

the above are all re-affirming points of scripture that reinforce the punishment and end of the wicked.

weight upon weight of scriptures to be ignored by ECT.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
common sense theology..............

common sense theology..............

It is information that you can use. If you become less of a jerk, it would make me happy. You might be happier too, if you were less of a jerk.

Yep, its just 'information' folks :)

A calm sensible well studied approach is most appropriate, as far as respect to any subject goes.

Some things we must admit to not knowing (agnosis position), while others we assume to have some measure of 'knowledge'(gnosis) about, while we are speculating or reasoning about other things, on various levels...however they 'relate'.

Being a 'jerk' helps no one, let alone 'God'.




pj
 

Cross Reference

New member
Yep, its just 'information' folks :)

A calm sensible well studied approach is most appropriate, as far as respect to any subject goes.

Some things we must admit to not knowing (agnosis position), while others we assume to have some measure of 'knowledge'(gnosis) about, while we are speculating or reasoning about other things, on various levels...however they 'relate'.

Being a 'jerk' helps no one, let alone 'God'.




pj

And for that one presuming another a jerk without knowledge, is open to damnation.
 

Timotheos

New member
You called me a snot ball. That is why I believe you are a jerk.
The evidence that you are a jerk is that you call people "snot ball".

You could continue to deny that you are a jerk, or you could repent of your behavior. I don't care what you do. Your opinion means nothing to me, because of your lack of character.
 

Word based mystic

New member
cross reference. once again.

for the third time.

i will ask you for an apology for.

ok.

first we will discuss your saying that you are not criticizing my character,
1. first you said I intentionally ((obfuscate)) in earlier posts.

I have no need nor desire to muddy the waters or make unclear, nor do i cover up or confuse.

I Don't need to.

2. Then in a more recent post You said i (condemned) you and others for taking the stance that the soul is indestructible.

I have never (condemned), judged you or others in their sincerity or their salvation.

3. Yet you earlier stated if I continue with believing the soul is destructible and does not have eternal life " I will not have a place in the fathers house"
this statement puts forth gnostic or perfection of doctrinal understanding as the means of maintaining salvation. NOT Good.

4. you just stated I was dishonest and I knew it.
calling me a liar and not even referring what i am lying about is not what I have seen your character in the past. But i am changing my mind.

you have much to apologize about.

I would never throw out the accusations you have done just because you disagree with certain points of doctrine on the wicked soul having eternal life or being imperishable.

next i will discuss the main themes and the numerous scriptures that are ignored by Ect.

but first i wanted to address your (obvious) character attack.
 

serpentdove

BANNED
Banned
The Bible says clearly that the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord...

That is natural death--a consequence of sin (Rom. 5:12).

But wait. :poly: What's the rest of the story? But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death (Re 21:7–8, emphasis mine). :popcorn:

"...And now you know the rest of the story." :eek: ~ Paul Harvey

See:

How is hell eternal if there will be a new heavens and new earth where the former things have passed away?
 

Timotheos

New member
That is natural death--a consequence of sin (Rom. 5:12).

But wait. :poly: What's the rest of the story? But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death (Re 21:7–8, emphasis mine). :popcorn:

"...And now you know the rest of the story." :eek: ~ Paul Harvey

See:

How is hell eternal if there will be a new heavens and new earth where the former things have passed away?

Exactly right, a second DEATH. Death, not an eternity of life in torment being tortured by being set on fire and never allowed to die.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Jesus described the rich man in torments in hell. He also told us that the smoke arising from those tormented in the Lake of Fire will NEVER cease ascending. That torment is nick-named: "The Second Death." How dense does one have to be to miss that? :idunno:
 

Word based mystic

New member
Jesus described the rich man in torments in hell. He also told us that the smoke arising from those tormented in the Lake of Fire will NEVER cease ascending. That torment is nick-named: "The Second Death." How dense does one have to be to miss that? :idunno:

annhh it does not say it will never cease.

annnhh that punishment from judgement is death/2nd death after the resurrection. The fire produces the death it does not regenerate that which it destroys.

If I took the liberty you take on changing the meaning and words of scriptures on any other subject you would definitely not let me get away with it.

it says forever


just the smoke.
ascending till the end of the age.

let us get the basics

forever = aion till the end of the age, period of time, related to this present age and earth.

all these things pass away in the new heaven and earth where righteousness dwells.

making aion which specifically means an age of to be never ending is just plain wrong and totally changes the meaning in hebrew and greek to be just the opposite.

Jesus is the Life
in him we have regenerative and eternal life

there is no life unless we are in Christ.

the wicked soul is not indestructible or imperishable. It does not have life in any manner and will perish = utterly destroy in the fire.

as Jesus said in matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 

Word based mystic

New member
many initial early christian philosophers came out of the background of plato and aristotle philosophies.

platonism promoted the immortality of the soul.

you will not find in scripture the description of the wicked soul being indestructible or imperishable and having never ending regenerative life.


much of what ect promotes is platonism.

and the only inferences of such eternal life in hell can only be affirmed if the meaning of Life, forever/aion, death, perish and destroy are changed to be just the opposite of the very plain greek and hebrew meanings or adding speculative greek philosophies.
 

Timotheos

New member
Jesus described the rich man in torments in hell. He also told us that the smoke arising from those tormented in the Lake of Fire will NEVER cease ascending. That torment is nick-named: "The Second Death." How dense does one have to be to miss that? :idunno:

How dense does a person have to be to accept that the second death is death, the second time? Is that your question? How dense does a person have to be to accept that the second death is the second death?

Go ahead and tell me exactly how dense I am for believing what the Bible says.
 

Timotheos

New member
Never allowed? Wrong understanding of the situation. Better understanding is with the word, "can't" as in "can't die"."

Can't die? Are you sure?
Jesus disagrees with you because He said "fear the one who CAN destroy both body and soul in hell".

The Bible disagrees with you because Ezekiel 18:4 says that the soul who sins SHALL die. If you are correct that they CAN'T die, then the Bible is WRONG which specifically states that they SHALL die.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Can't die? Are you sure?

Positive!

Jesus disagrees with you because He said "fear the one who CAN destroy both body and soul in hell".

Jesus disagrees with me, you say? Surely you jest? The soul cannot ever die and you are simply are refusing understanding from the scriptures that explain why. No one can help you see that if refuse what is the truth about the rich man and Lazarus.

The Bible disagrees with you because Ezekiel 18:4 says that the soul who sins SHALL die. If you are correct that they CAN'T die, then the Bible is WRONG which specifically states that they SHALL die.

Try this out and tell me I'm wrong: The heroin addict without remedy, is a 'dead' man walking. Is that not a true statement of fact? How come the word 'dead' says it all about his condition?
 

Cross Reference

New member
How dense does a person have to be to accept that the second death is death, the second time? Is that your question? How dense does a person have to be to accept that the second death is the second death?

Go ahead and tell me exactly how dense I am for believing what the Bible says.

You ignore what the Bible says!!! Explain the reason of any kind of a second death if a first death accomplishes the same thing, i.e., total destruction????!!!! Dead is dead, right??? That is what you believe, right???!! So why a second death unless the soul can't die anymore in condemned man than one who is destined for eternal life??? As with the "unquenchable fire" of hell, Life in Heaven will never end.
 
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