John 20:28 and the Trinity

[Apple7]

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The fact that Satan is bound in Rev 12, is proven-out in Rev 13 which describes the fact that Satan is not there in person, as thus…



Revelation 13

And I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten diadems, and on its heads names of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and its feet as of a bear, and its mouth as a lion's mouth. And the dragon gave its power to it, and its throne, and great authority. And I saw one of its heads, as having been slain to death, and its deadly wound was healed. And all the earth wondered after the beast. And they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like the beast; who is able to make war with it? And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given to it. And authority to act forty two months was given to it. And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those tabernacling in Heaven. And it was given to it "to war with the saints, and to overcome them." And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation. Dan. 7:21 And all those dwelling in the earth will worship it, those of whom the names had not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb having been slain from the foundation of the world. If anyone has an ear, let him hear. If anyone gathers captivity, into captivity he goes. If anyone will kill by a sword, by a sword he must be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. And it had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. And it executes all the authority of the first beast before it. And it causes that the earth and those dwelling in it should worship the first beast, of which was healed its deadly wound. And it does great signs, that it even causes fire to come down out of the heaven onto the earth before men. And it deceives those dwelling on the earth, because of the signs which were given to it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling on the earth to make an image to the beast who has the wound of the sword, and lived.
And was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak, and might cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. And the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the freemen and the slaves, it causes that they give to them all a mark on their right hand, or on their foreheads,
even that not any could buy or sell, except the one having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of its name. Here is wisdom: Let the one having reason count the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man and its number is six hundred and sixty six.


As you can easily see, Satan is clearly bound in Rev 13...

He has to give away his 'power'....as he cannot be present, himself.

The 'beast' from the earth (mankind) spoke 'like' Satan...but, was not actually Satan, as he is bound.

 

[Apple7]

(Rev 12:9)"..So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time..”

Any serious student of scripture would be able to read the above and understand that the passage is a post resurrection scripture as it refers to the blood of the lamb, indicating the going on that are been spoken of are after the events of Jesus sacrifice.

This being said, are you suggesting that Satan was hurled down to the earth prior and had already been conquered by "the blood of the lamb" prior to the "blood of the lamb" being shed?

So...

Who cast out Satan from Heaven?

Jesus' blood is mentioned as ransoming us....from whom?

How many times does Jesus have to shed His blood for us, as Rev mentions it several different times...proving that the text is non-linear.

 

[Apple7]

Do you care to tell us what translation you are using there Bowman, when you quote that verse?

The one being restrained in the verse is not Satan, but lawless men speaking false doctrines, this is ever so clear when reading the chapter and by its context. Moreover, the ones doing the restraining are the apostles, not Jesus, they themselves made this known (See Acts 20:29).

The Greek is in the singular, not plural.

 

[Apple7]

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-17) "..However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is here. 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders.."

Notice, the lawless one is not Satan since the verse states "lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan".

'Lawless one's' is NOT in the Greek of that verse.

Pick a translation that is more accurate...

 

[Dartman]

You just proved that Jesus taught The Trinity.



Mark 12.28 - 30

And coming up, one of the scribes, hearing them arguing, knowing that He answered them well, he questioned Him, What is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is: "Hear, Israel. The Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul" and with all your mind, "and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. (Deut. 6:4, 5)

Here we have Jesus declaring that the very first commandment is ALSO the Shema – of which, BOTH describe God as being Triune.

Jesus' reply was to a scribe...i.e. someone who knows the Hebrew scriptures of the OT.

Jesus references Deut 6.4- 5 which, in the Hebrew, declares the following...


• Tetragrammaton = singular
• Elohim = Plural
• Echad = one unity
• The juxtaposed words…Tetragrammaton, Elohim, Tetragrammaton, Echad
• God is referred to not once, not twice, but three times
• Singular, Plural, Singular
• These three elements form one unity
• Singular = Plural
• Plural = Singular
• God = Gods
• God is clearly singular
• God is clearly plural
• God is Uniplural


Further, had you even bothered to study the Hebrew, the first commandment literally reads as thus…

Let there be (singular verb) to you no others (plural adjective ‘acherim’) gods (plural noun ‘elohim’) before my Presences (plural noun ‘panim’) (Exo 20.3; Deut 5.7)

None of your attempt to rationalize away the clear statement of the text is relevant. The Shema is a blatant contradiction of trinitarian theory, and establishes beyond doubt that Jehovah/YHVH .... Christ's God, is the ONLY supreme being, and that is the most important fact in the Bible.

 

[Idolater]

It does not mean that.

It does.

I have no problem saying that Jesus is the Son of God. Some say that it doesn't mean only begotten. I know that it doesn't always mean that, but that in a way it must always mean that if only begotten is correct and I believe currently that it is.

This looks good.

 

[Dartman]

Jesus changed the location of worship to Himself and The Holy Spirit, in John 4.

• John 4.21; Worship is no longer to take place in the Mountain, or in Jerusalem.
• John 4.23 – 24; Jesus declares that the NEW place to worship is in Spirit and Truth,

No, Jesus changed the location of worship from Jerusalem, to the spirit of the believer, focused on the truth. Just like God's spirit/mind is perfect, the believers must transform their spirit/mind to match our God's spirit/mind.

And, you ignored Jesus statement that he and the other Jews worshiped the TRUE God. The Jews have never been trinitarian.

...

 

[Apple7]

The lawless one is also mentioned as walking and sitting in the temple and publicly proclaiming that he is a god (apparently Satan is never called god according to your understanding so this definitely cant be talking about satan).

You are in serious need of a good rendering.

2 Thes 2 references OT passages Dan 11.36 and Eze 28.2.

Try reading the origin of the NT references before making further gaffs...

 

[Apple7]

None of your attempt to rationalize away the clear statement of the text is relevant. The Shema is a blatant contradiction of trinitarian theory, and establishes beyond doubt that Jehovah/YHVH .... Christ's God, is the ONLY supreme being, and that is the most important fact in the Bible.

Tell that to the prophet that wrote it in Hebrew.

 

[Apple7]

No, Jesus changed the location of worship from Jerusalem, to the spirit of the believer, focused on the truth. Just like God's spirit/mind is perfect, the believers must transform their spirit/mind to match our God's spirit/mind.

Jesus is referred to as 'The Truth' in scripture.

Try again...

And, you ignored Jesus statement that he and the other Jews worshiped the TRUE God. The Jews have never been trinitarian.

...

What was special about the Hebrew remnant that Yahweh allowed to live?

 

[Idolater]

I'm in GREAT company;

Ps 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Your attempt to use as evidence, the accusations made by murderers, is WAY more sad than funny. But, it is ALSO laughably pathetic.

Here's what we've got. John helpfully records Christ saying, "My Father" (Jn5:17KJV). It meant to the people who were there, that He was making Himself "equal with God" (Jn5:18KJV), but John is not writing his Gospel for just the people who were there, but for the Church, who by that time (after Peter died; the late 60s), were more Gentile / Pagan / Heathen than Jewish, so we would not know that in the Lord saying of God, "My Father" (Jn5:17KJV), that He was making Himself "equal with God" (Jn5:18KJV). It was very helpful of him to write that part.

 

[Jacob]

It does.
This looks good.

The Son of God does not mean God.

 

[Dartman]

Here's what we've got. John helpfully records Christ saying, "My Father" (Jn5:17KJV). It meant to the people who were there, that He was making Himself "equal with God" (Jn5:18KJV),

No, it only meant that to the ones that were wanting to kill him
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


Jesus REALLY helps us nail that down when he said" My Father is greater than I".

 

[Dartman]

The Son of God does not mean God.

Amen!

 

[Idolater]

The Son of God does not mean God.

Does too.

 

[Idolater]

No . . . he said" My Father is greater than I".

You're right, He did say that. And He said, "I and my Father are one."

There's only one explanation for that---and that's the Trinity. Thanks for making my point.

 

[glorydaz]

The Son of God does not mean God.

What about the Son of man?

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Now that Son of man appears as the Ancient of Days...check it out.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.​

Rev. 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.​

 

[NWL]

Let’s review the term, mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm, which you want to be rendered as ‘angels’.

Its location as used in the verse in question…

For You have made him lack a little from God (mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm); and have crowned him with glory and honor. (Psalm 8.5)


Now…let’s compare the same exact term as used in the only two other places in scripture, as thus…


And he sent messengers to him, saying, What do I have to do with you, O king of Judah? I am not coming against you today, but toward the house with which I have war; and God said for me to hasten; stop yourself from opposing God (mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm), who is with me, and He shall not destroy you. (2 Chron 35.21)

Now…please tell us how many translators render mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm as ‘angels’ in 2 Chron 35.21?

That’s correct…none.



And then burned the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram; his wrath burned against Job, because he had justified himself rather than God (mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm). (Job 32.2)

Now…please tell us how many translators render mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm as ‘angels’ in Job 32.2?

That’s correct…none.


So…scripturally, we have thus established, beyond any reasonable doubt, that the Hebrew term, mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm, is to be rendered as God….NOT ‘angels’.

And how many of those translators that have rendered mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm as "God" in 2 Chron 35:21 and 2 Job 32:2 have translated mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm as "Angels" in Psalms 8:5? Answer please

Your reasoning is a fools argument, you use other translators translations of two verses as proof that mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm means God in Psalms 8:5, yet you ignore those very same translators understanding when it comes to the usage of mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm when read in Psalms 8:5.

You won't convince anyone about anything when you use that type of logic.

Try again.

So...

Now you have completely abandoned Theos is favor of OT scripture.

All of your examples use the term elohim and variants, of which, this term is known for having an extraordinary breadth of meaning.

Any serious scholar already knows this fact.

What would be most impressive, since you are now digging into the OT, is to pull-out ANY passage with the term Yahweh, which does not refer to Yahweh.

Good luck on that challenge...

You evaded the point, if Satan fallen angels can be referred to as gods why is Satan, the ruler of the wicked, not able to be referred to as a god? Posing a pony "challenge" won't hide your subtle deflection.

 

[NWL]

The Evil One, The Hostile One, The Devil departed in an absolute manner ‘apēlthen’ (completed action), but left behind his demons; Jesus’ Parable of the Wheat & the Tares (Mat 13.25)

Ohhh, So you're assuming that when it says that the Man(Satan) came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and then "went away" (went away/apēlthen) that the "went away" equates being bound by Jesus.

Can you just confirm that to you apēlthen here in Matt 13:25 means "Jesus bound Satan" and show us exactly where in the verse it references this action and show us another usage of apēlthen where it expresses a or binding effect when apēlthen is applied to someone?

Can "apēlthen" be applied to someone to simply mean they left the location? Why can the term simply not mean Satan "went away" or 'left from spreading weeds among the wheat' as it reads and so many translators agree?

The context of 2 Cor 11 informs the reader that Satan is not present himself in the world, but, instead, his presentment is in his demons as detailed in the context of 2 Cor 11.12 – 15.

Show us exactly where is states "Satan is not present himself in the world but, instead, his presentment is in his demons" as you just boldly claimed, where does it read so, she me the very words please.

The verse literally says that Satan "HIMSELF" transforms into an angel of light, are you saying that this verse is wrong, and at the time it was written Satan was not transforming himself into an angel of light, despite the verse saying the opposite. Confirm for us please.

The Dragon, The Old Serpent, The Devil, Satan was bound ‘edēsen’ (completed action), cast into the abyss ‘ebalen’ (completed action), shut ‘ekleisen’ (completed action), and sealed ‘esphragisen’ (completed action), that he can no longer deceive people‘planēsē’(singular, completed action), by Jesus. Rev 20.1 – 3

We agree on this based on Rev 20:1-3, why because it literally states Satan was bound.

Now prove this happened at the time of Christ death, you've failed miserably so far its embarrassing.

 

[SabathMoon]

We agree on this based on Rev 20:1-3, why because it literally states Satan was bound.

Now prove this happened at the time of Christ death, you've failed miserably so far its embarrassing.

What about after the temple and Jerusalem are destroyed?