John 20:28 and the Trinity

[Idolater]

"The Son of God" means God.

That's utterly preposterous. You are not your dad.

I'm not, but John 5:18 KJV.

It's biblical. The Son of God IS God.

 

[Apple7]

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.

Regarding your centerpiece, John 17.3, if you were even remotely familiar with Greek, then you would already be cognizant that there are absolutely no grammatical reasons at all for denying that αληθινον θεον refers to Jesus Christ.

This can be deduced from a study of the article with multiple substantives connected via kai.


αυτη δε εστιν η αιωνιος ζωη ινα γινωσκωσιν σε τον μονον αληθινον θεον και ον απεστειλας ιησουν χριστον

hautē de estin hē aiōnios zōē hina ginōskōsin se ton monon alēthinon theon kai hon apesteilas Iēsoun christon

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. (John 17.3)

 

[Apple7]

Yep, and when his God had resurrected him back to life, that same body (now flesh and bone... not flesh and blood) stood up. You just keep ignoring the Scriptures, because they get in the way of your pet theories;
Gal 1:1-3 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

• God the Father… Acts 3.26; Eph 1.15-20; Gal 1.1; 1 Thes 1.9-10
• God the Son…John 2.19-22; 10.17-18; Romans 6.4;
• God the Spirit…Romans 8.11; 1 Peter 3.18
• The Trinity…Romans 10.9; 1 Peter 1.20-21; Hebrews 13.20-21; 1 Cor 6.14; Col 2.11-12; Acts 2.23-24; 2.32; 3.14-15; 13.30-37

 

[Dartman]

Just to interrupt your monologue for a moment, but I need to point out that when you say that "the Jews were the only ones who stated that Jesus made himself equal to God...." that "the Jews" are the pretty much entire audience of the gospel.

Are you intentionally ignoring the Jews that accepted Jesus, which NEVER called him "God"... but called him the "son of the living God"?
Instead, you cling to the errors made by those Jews that rejected Jesus .

Explain for us why Jesus spoke in proverb and parable while he was on the earth again?

We need to remember all of the rules for context; who is speaking, who is being spoken to, what is the topic, etc.
The texts that explain Jesus spoke in parables state that it was to the multitudes that he spoke in parables. NOT when he prayed to his God!

There is NO "metaphor" in John 17:3, it is entirely literal, and is a prayer to Christ's God;
And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.

 

[Dartman]

I'm not, but John 5:18 KJV.

It's biblical. The Son of God IS God.

LOL .... going by YOUR interpretive method, Satan was correct in Gen 3, when he said "you will not surely die". You NEED to pay more attention to WHO you are quoting! You have accepted the excuses made by murderers as Gospel!! IN SPITE of Jesus own words;

And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.

 

[Dartman]

Regarding your centerpiece, John 17.3, if you were even remotely familiar with Greek, then you would already be cognizant that there are absolutely no grammatical reasons at all for denying that αληθινον θεον refers to Jesus Christ.

This can be deduced from a study of the article with multiple substantives connected via kai.


αυτη δε εστιν η αιωνιος ζωη ινα γινωσκωσιν σε τον μονον αληθινον θεον και ον απεστειλας ιησουν χριστον

hautē de estin hē aiōnios zōē hina ginōskōsin se ton monon alēthinon theon kai hon apesteilas Iēsoun christon

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. (John 17.3)

Jesus was praying to his God, his Father ...... he was NOT praying to himself!! Your convoluted distortions of this text are hideous.

 

[Idolater]

LOL

Indeed.

 

[Dartman]

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

• God the Father… Acts 3.26; Eph 1.15-20; Gal 1.1; 1 Thes 1.9-10

Yes.

• God the Son…John 2.19-22; 10.17-18; Romans 6.4;

No. None of these texts state Jesus resurrected himself. John 2 states that even if his body is placed in the tomb, he is going to stand up again. This is a sign. AFTER his God resurrected him from the dead!
John 10 records Jesus promise that he will take up his life again. AFTER his God resurrected him from the dead!
Rom 6:4 states Jesus was ".. raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

• God the Spirit…Romans 8.11; 1 Peter 3.18

NO. There is NEVER a Scripture that uses this PAGAN phrase "God the spirit". It is apostasy.
Rom 8:11 But if the spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His spirit that dwelleth in you.The holy spirit BELONGS to God, IT is His mind/thinking ... and the power produced by His mind/thinking.

• The Trinity…

There is no such thing in the Scriptures. You are ignoring what the texts actually state, and replacing "God" with your False God.

Romans 10.9; 1 Peter 1.20-21; Hebrews 13.20-21; 1 Cor 6.14; Col 2.11-12; Acts 2.23-24; 2.32; 3.14-15; 13.30-37
Every one of these texts states it is "God" that raised Jesus from the dead.

The fact that you would so blatantly misquote these texts, and insert your False God into these texts, is a GLARINGLY obvious act of desperation.
I understand why.
You have no real evidence...... so in desperation, you just make something up. Tragic.

 

[Dartman]

Indeed.

I'm in GREAT company;

Ps 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Your attempt to use as evidence, the accusations made by murderers, is WAY more sad than funny. But, it is ALSO laughably pathetic.

 

[NWL]

You already agreed that Jesus is referred to as Theos in other portions of scripture.

How many 'other' portions of scripture have Satan identified as Theos?

Zero.

Thus...your argument is one from silence, and not from fact.

Again, are you suggesting absence of evidence is evidence of absence?

 

[NWL]

Revelation was not written linearly.

Any serious student of scripture can easily see that Revelation repeats itself endlessly, with varying epithets.

(Rev 12:9)"..So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time..”

Any serious student of scripture would be able to read the above and understand that the passage is a post resurrection scripture as it refers to the blood of the lamb, indicating the going on that are been spoken of are after the events of Jesus sacrifice.

This being said, are you suggesting that Satan was hurled down to the earth prior and had already been conquered by "the blood of the lamb" prior to the "blood of the lamb" being shed?

 

[NWL]

Show us...

I'll will quote what your brother in Christ Roseritter posted to me when he wrongly thought that I was arguing the point that you argue.

ROSENRITTER: Nor is this an unusual interpretation. I have a handful of commentaries that we can check here, including:

Albert Barnes "There can be no doubt that Satan is here designated...";
Adam Clarke " but who is meant by the god of this world? ... Satan."
John Gill "Satan ... who is here styled the "god of this world"."
Matthew Henry "They are under the influence and power of the devil, who is here called the god of this world, and elsewhere the prince of this world."
John Wesley "The God of this world - What a sublime and horrible description of Satan!"

He's not.

Remember, Rev was not written linearly.

The fact that Satan is bound in Rev 12, is proven-out in Rev 13 which describes the fact that Satan is not there in person.

Show us...

 

[NWL]

Heb 2.14

επει ουν τα παιδια κεκοινωνηκεν αιματος και σαρκος και αυτος παραπλησιως μετεσχεν των αυτων ινα δια του θανατου καταργηση τον το κρατος εχοντα του θανατου τουτ εστιν τον διαβολον

epei oun ta paidia kekoinōnēken haimatos kai sarkos kai autos paraplēsiōs meteschen tōn autōn hina dia tou thanatou katargēsē ton to kratos echonta tou thanatou tout' estin ton diabolon

Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might render entirely idle the one having the power of death, that is, the devil;



καταργηση = ‘katargēsē’

‘katargēsē’ definition:

Strong’s #G2673. Aorist tense verb, 3rd person singular.The Devil is to be reduced to inactivity through the death of Christ (Heb 2.14). The Epistle to the Hebrews fills out this declaration by stating that through the death of Christ even the one who has power over death, the devil, is condemned to inactivity or ineffectiveness in relation to the Christian (Heb 2.14). To cause something to come to an end or no longer in existence, abolish, wipe out, set aside. To render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative. To cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency. To deprive of force, influence, power. To cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish. To cease, to pass away, be done away. To be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one. To terminate all intercourse with one. to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively: - abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void. To cause something to be unproductive, use up, exhaust, waste. To cause something to lose its power or effectiveness, invalidate, make powerless. From #G2596 & #G691.

Strong’s #G2596. Down from.

Strong’s #G691. To be idle.

Even what you quoted does not fully agree with you. Again, you're trying to prove that Satan had ZERO power himself and was completely bound at the death of the Christ and only his influence was left once bound through his evil spirits (correct me if I'm wrong here). The above only expressed that Satan efforts were only ineffective "in relation to a Christian".

Moreover where in the verse does it say Satan was bound, and where does it state that Jesus at the at or just after his death made Satan idle (bring his power to nothing)? I see nothing in the verse stating that Jesus carried out making Satan who has the power of death nothing, in fact 1 Cor 15:20 states this would be done after Jesus "hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power".

(1 Corinthians 15:20) "..But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death... Next, the end, when he [Christ] hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.."

 

[NWL]

Perhaps this passage is a little clearer for your viewing...


2 Thes 2.6 - 7

και νυν το κατεχον οιδατε εις το αποκαλυφθηναι αυτον εν τω αυτου καιρω το γαρ μυστηριον ηδη ενεργειται της ανομιας μονον ο κατεχων αρτι εως εκ μεσου γενηται

kai nyn to katechon iodate eis to apokalyphthēnai auton en tō heautou kairō to gar mystērion ēdē energeitai tēs anomias monon ho katechōn arti heōs ek mesou genētai

And you know that which is binding him for now, to be revealed in his appointed time. For The Hidden, The Lawless is already working, only he is bound at present, taken out of the way, until he comes out of the midst.

Do you care to tell us what translation you are using there Bowman, when you quote that verse?

The one being restrained in the verse is not Satan, but lawless men speaking false doctrines, this is ever so clear when reading the chapter and by its context. Moreover, the ones doing the restraining are the apostles, not Jesus, they themselves made this known (See Acts 20:29).

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-17) "..However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is here. 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders.."

Notice, the lawless one is not Satan since the verse states "lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan". The lawless one is also mentioned as walking and sitting in the temple and publicly proclaiming that he is a god (apparently Satan is never called god according to your understanding so this definitely cant be talking about satan).

What do you do with 2 Cor 11:14, a post resurrection verse?

(2 Corinthians 11:14) "..And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light.."

 

[NWL]

Rev 12 shares the same Greek term applied to Satan, 'apēlthen', as that of Jesus' parable in Mat 13.24 - 30, in which Satan goes away in the absolute sense (i.e. he is bound).

Can you imagine that! Satan is referred to by the same term that he is referred to in another verse! I'm gobsmacked! I guess those to verse must be talking about exactly the same thing...... Not.

I guess the same meaning needs to be applied to Satan in Gen 3:1 when compared to Rev 12:9-12 when he's called a serpent too right? The same phrase is used so is simply must relate to the same thing right? #sarcasm

We must also irrationally conclude that Rev 12:9-12 is speaking of when Satan is bound for 1000 years too right, since Rev 20:2 calls Satan a dragon, just like is Rev 12:9! #sarcasm

Your reasoning really is just.. plain bad at times. Furthermore, Mat 13:24-30 states nothing about Satan being bound, its an illustration where an evil man (Satan), spreads weeds among the wheat and how the reapers gather up the weeds (not Satan) and burn the weeds (not Satan).

 

[Apple7]

Jesus was praying to his God, his Father ...... he was NOT praying to himself!! Your convoluted distortions of this text are hideous.

Who, but you, ever claimed that Jesus was praying to Himself?

This statement of yours is only uttered by those who have no earthly idea of what The Trinity even is...and then you proceed to attack a straw-man trinity of your very own creation.

The First and Second Person's of The Trinity are not each other.

No Trinitarian would ever make this claim.

Little wonder you reject it.

Tell us, in your own words, what you even think The Trinity is.

 

[Apple7]

There is no such thing in the Scriptures. You are ignoring what the texts actually state, and replacing "God" with your False God.

Romans 10.9; 1 Peter 1.20-21; Hebrews 13.20-21; 1 Cor 6.14; Col 2.11-12; Acts 2.23-24; 2.32; 3.14-15; 13.30-37
Every one of these texts states it is "God" that raised Jesus from the dead.

The God of the Holy Bible is Triune.

Thus....if the context mentions only Theos, without regard to the Person, then we must conclude that The Trinity was involved.

 

[Apple7]

Again, are you suggesting absence of evidence is evidence of absence?

Evidence is plentiful.

Even you loudly and proudly declared that Jesus is Theos in other scriptures, outside of 2 Cor 4.4.

Satan is NEVER referred to as Theos in ANY scripture.

Therefore, just these facts alone, which you soundly agree with, without taking anything else into consideration, makes Jesus the most likely candidate for yet another Theos title to be bestowed in 2 Cor 4.4.

Deal with it...

 

[Dartman]

The God of the Holy Bible is Triune.

Not according to any verse in the Scriptures. The God of the holy Bible is Jehovah/YHVH, and there is ONLY one Jehovah/YHVH;

Deut 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: 5 and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Jesus repeated this commandment about his God, as the most important commandment of all;

Mark 12:29-30 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

This is exactly the same God that Jesus, and the other faithful Jews worshiped;

John 4:22 Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.


It is this God of the OT that Jesus and the Apostles believed;

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

This "triune" teaching directly contradicts the actual STATEMENTS made in Scripture.

There is no trinity.

 

[Dartman]

Who, but you, ever claimed that Jesus was praying to Himself?

This statement of yours is only uttered by those who have no earthly idea of what The Trinity even is...and then you proceed to attack a straw-man trinity of your very own creation.

The First and Second Person's of The Trinity are not each other.

Your "oneness" accomplices would disagree.

No Trinitarian would ever make this claim.[/quote]Jesus was praying to his God, and said that his God is "the ONLY true God".

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.

Little wonder you reject it.

Tell us, in your own words, what you even think The Trinity is.

Nope. It's a "moving target" by design. It's an utterly illogical theory, inconsistent with God's Creation,and more importantly it is inconsistent with the clear and simple statements of Scripture. This "trinity" is the illegitimate offspring of Greek philosophy, mixed with a hand full of verses that are merely worded so that the trinitarian doctrine is a POSSIBLE interpretation of what is actually written.
Since it is a lie to begin with, there are NO boundaries, so discussing with trinitarian/oneness proponents is a game of "whack-a-mole". They dodge down the "Jesus is 100% man" hole when trapped .... and down the "Jesus is 100% God" hole, whenever trapped.
IF the Scripture WOULD HAVE stated "Jesus is God", or "God, Jesus and the holy spirit are ALL God", or even USED the term "triune" or "trinity".... THEN it would be a matter of faith vrs. God's Creation. But, since the Scriptures NEVER ..... EVER .... give a trinitarian/oneness EXPLANATION to any audience, anywhere in the Scritpures .... AND since we are instructed to understand God in harmony with His Creation .... it's NOT a matter of faith ..... trinity/oneness theories are fiction.