John 20:28 and the Trinity

[NWL]

A review…

Heb 2.14 - 15

Since, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, in like manner He Himself also shared the same things, that through death He might render entirely idle (katargēsē) the one having the power of death, that is, the devil; and might set these free (apallaxē), as many as by fear of death were subject to slavery through all the lifetime to live.

The reader is informed that at Jesus’ death:

• The Devil is rendered entirely idle (katargēsē)
• Because The Devil has been rendered impotent, this then sets people free (apallaxē)
• No mention that The Devil has been defeated, only bound


Compare to where the exact term ‘katargēsē’ is used in 1Cor…

1 Cor 15.20 - 26

But now Christ has been raised from the dead; He became the firstfruit of those having fallen asleep. For since death is through man, also through a Man is a resurrection of the dead; for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming. Then the end, after He delivers the kingdom to The God and Father, after He might render entirely idle (katargēsē) all rule and all authority and power. For it is right for Him to reign until He puts all the hostile ones under His feet; the last hostile thing made to cease is death.


The reader is informed of an ordered sequence of events:

• The First Resurrection: Christ first, then The Righteous at His return (i.e. at the end of His reign)
• Binding of Satan: The Devil (singular) is rendered entirely idle and occurs BEFORE the reign of Christ (i.e. at Jesus’ death upon the Cross)
• Reigning Period: There is a period of Christ reigning (i.e. 1,000 years, etc) until all the enemies (plural, demons) are conquered
• The Second Resurrection: (Second Death – when Satan & death are defeated). This is the end of time – which occurs AFTER Jesus has delivered up the kingdom and AFTER Jesus had first bound Satan.



Again, we can see agreement in other scripture that Satan is first bound at the Cross – which is followed by the ‘1000 year’ reign of Christ, in which The Righteous are allowed to come to Christ without the direct blockage of Satan.

Good, now show me where Hebrews 2 states that Jesus bound Satan there an then? I get it, Jesus death enables mankind to be set free as it gives Jesus the power of Satan who has the power over death, just show me where it shows the now enabled Jesus invoking this power onto Satan.

*Thought exercise*

God states: Person A completed his training for a whole year and gained the strength and power to make completely idle the bully who was bullying him his whole life.

Does the statement above mean Person A has already made idle the bully, no! Why, because nowhere does it state person A actually made the bully idle.

Inspired writer: So that through his death he [Jesus] might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil.

Does the statement above show that Jesus has made Satan idle, no! Why, because nowhere does it state Jesus actually made the Satan idle.

Again, show me where Hebrews 2 states Satan was made idle, it clearly does not.

 

[NWL]

The fact that Satan is bound in Rev 12, is proven-out in Rev 13 which describes the fact that Satan is not there in person, as thus…



Revelation 13

And I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten diadems, and on its heads names of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and its feet as of a bear, and its mouth as a lion's mouth. And the dragon gave its power to it, and its throne, and great authority.... And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth. And it had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. And it executes all the authority of the first beast before it

As you can easily see, Satan is clearly bound in Rev 13...

He has to give away his 'power'....as he cannot be present, himself.

The 'beast' from the earth (mankind) spoke 'like' Satan...but, was not actually Satan, as he is bound.

No, what I clearly see is the Dragon, who you claimed was bound at the cross, giving his power to another entity.

Where does it state that the dragon gave his power out because he was bound, where exactly is it clear,again, show me the very words out of the portion of text? Its clear in your head because you're assuming and reading thoughts into the verse. The verse is very clear and simply states the dragon gave its power to another entity.

God has given his power to men (Numbers 11:25) and angels.

Demons have given their power to men (Dan 1:20).

Why does it need to be read into scripture that when Satan gives power to another person or group that this means he has somehow been bound? It doesn't it is your false assumption that it does.

Your reasoning is not consistent with scripture.

 

[NWL]

Any serious student of scripture would be able to read the above and understand that the passage is a post resurrection scripture as it refers to the blood of the lamb, indicating the going on that are been spoken of are after the events of Jesus sacrifice.

This being said, are you suggesting that Satan was hurled down to the earth prior and had already been conquered by "the blood of the lamb" prior to the "blood of the lamb" being shed?

So...

Who cast out Satan from Heaven?

Jesus' blood is mentioned as ransoming us....from whom?

How many times does Jesus have to shed His blood for us, as Rev mentions it several different times...proving that the text is non-linear.

Really??? You playing dumb.

Rev 12:10 is regarding Satan, who you state was bound at the cross, thrown to the earth and not bound. You then have Rev 12:12 again showing Satan on the earth and not bound, and yet, as if by magic you have Rev 12:11 which reads completely in context from Rev 12:7-13 mentioned the blood of the lamb that had been shed and its somehow talking about a different time event from verses 11 and 12. Not forgetting, that chapter and verse division aren't in the original manuscripts. Do you honestly expect people to believe this stuff bowman. :rotfl:

Let me guess, when it states "and they overcame him [Satan]" in v11, this is talking about Jesus bounding Satan by his death on the cross and NOT the massive battle that took place in heaven where Satan got his *** handed to him right? Laughable!

Who cast out Satan from Heaven?

The verse doesn't say, it simply states that Michael and his angels battled with the dragon. It makes no mention of who cast him out of Heaven.

Jesus' blood is mentioned as ransoming us....from whom?

Adamic sin. (Romans 5:12)

How many times does Jesus have to shed His blood for us

Once. (Hebrews 9:11)

as Rev mentions it several different times...proving that the text is non-linear.

Show me the verses.

 

[NWL]

The Greek is in the singular, not plural.

So? The verse still isn't speaking about Satan. Learn how to deal with being wrong next time instead of deflecting by bringing out the insignificant.

And this is coming from the man who translate scripture himself picking the translated definition that best suit his assumed beliefs.

 

[NWL]

The lawless one is also mentioned as walking and sitting in the temple and publicly proclaiming that he is a god (apparently Satan is never called god according to your understanding so this definitely cant be talking about satan).

You are in serious need of a good rendering.

2 Thes 2 references OT passages Dan 11.36 and Eze 28.2.

Try reading the origin of the NT references before making further gaffs...

What does this have anything to do with what I said?

 

[NWL]

What about after the temple and Jerusalem are destroyed?

What about after the temple and Jerusalem are destroyed? Are you saying Satan was bound after the temple and Jerusalem are destroyed? I do not fully understand what you are asking.

 

[Apple7]

No, what I clearly see is the Dragon, who you claimed was bound at the cross, giving his power to another entity.

Where does it state that the dragon gave his power out because he was bound, where exactly is it clear,again, show me the very words out of the portion of text? Its clear in your head because you're assuming and reading thoughts into the verse. The verse is very clear and simply states the dragon gave its power to another entity.

Satan's 'power' refers to his demons.

If Satan was present, then he would do things in person.

The fact that there is absolutely ZERO mention of Satan possessing anyone after The Cross, and Satan is NEVER mentioned as being present, in person, at any event, clearly informs the reader that he was rendered impotent at The Cross.

God has given his power to men (Numbers 11:25) and angels.

No mention of power being given away in that passage.

In fact, all you have provided is that Yahweh took on form in front of Moses.

Demons have given their power to men (Dan 1:20).

No mention of power being given away in that passage.

Why does it need to be read into scripture that when Satan gives power to another person or group that this means he has somehow been bound? It doesn't it is your false assumption that it does.

Your reasoning is not consistent with scripture.

Why is Satan NOT there in person?

 

[Apple7]

What does this have anything to do with what I said?

Read the OT passages.

Your responses are seriously flagging...

 

[Apple7]

So? The verse still isn't speaking about Satan. Learn how to deal with being wrong next time instead of deflecting by bringing out the insignificant.

And this is coming from the man who translate scripture himself picking the translated definition that best suit his assumed beliefs.

Is this your very best rebuttal?

 

[Jacob]

Does too.

Son of God
God

different

 

[Apple7]

The verse doesn't say, it simply states that Michael and his angels battled with the dragon. It makes no mention of who cast him out of Heaven.

And war occurred in Heaven, Michael and his angels making war against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels made war, but they did not have strength, nor yet was place found for them in Heaven. And the great dragon was cast out (aorist, completed action), the old serpent being called devil, and, Satan; he deceiving the whole habitable world, was cast out(aorist, completed action) onto the earth, and his angels were cast out(aorist, completed action) with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because the accuser of our brothers is thrown down(aorist, completed action), the one accusing them before our God day and night. (Rev 12.7 - 10)

A simple reading of this passage from Rev 12 clearly informs the reader that the war in Heaven occurred between Michael and his angels & Satan and his angels – but, it was Jesus (God) that cast Satan from Heaven.


Thus....once again, context utterly destroys your JW cult credo that Jesus is Michael!

 

[Jacob]

What about the Son of man?

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Now that Son of man appears as the Ancient of Days...check it out.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.​

Rev. 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.​

I am not sure about that. But why do you want to talk about the Son of Man from here?

 

[Apple7]

Adamic sin. (Romans 5:12)

Jesus' blood ransomed us from Adam?

No.

A 'ransom' is a transaction between parties, in which payment is made by one party to the other for the release of prisoners.

So...according to your reasoning, Jesus paid a blood ransom to Adam, so that Adam could then release his prisoners that he held captive!

No, sparkie....not very impressed with that lack-luster reply of yours...

 

[Apple7]

Good, now show me where Hebrews 2 states that Jesus bound Satan there an then? I get it, Jesus death enables mankind to be set free as it gives Jesus the power of Satan who has the power over death, just show me where it shows the now enabled Jesus invoking this power onto Satan..

No transfer of power occurred at The Cross.

 

[Apple7]

Again, show me where Hebrews 2 states Satan was made idle, it clearly does not.

Jesus rendered The Devil entirely idle ‘katargēsē’ (completed action) at His death upon The Cross. Heb 2.14


Jesus stripped The Devil of authority ‘apekdysamenos’ (completed action) and separated him from his demons, at The Cross. Col 2.15


The Devil was exposed in disgrace ‘edeigmatisen’ (completed action) and was led as a prisoner in a triumphant procession ‘thriambeusas’ (completed action) Col 2.15

 

[Apple7]

Ohhh, So you're assuming that when it says that the Man(Satan) came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and then "went away" (went away/apēlthen) that the "went away" equates being bound by Jesus.

As mandated by the CONTEXT.

You never were one for considering context, as it always disagrees with your cult theology.


He put before them another parable, saying: The kingdom of Heaven is compared to a Man having sown good seed(singular) in his field. But while the men were sleeping, one hostile to Him came and sowed tares (plural) in the midst of the wheat, and went away. And when the blade (singular) sprouted and produced fruit, then the tares (plural) also appeared. And coming near, the slaves of the housemaster said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then from where does it have the tares? And he said to them, A man, an enemy did this. And the slaves said to him, Do you desire, then, that going out we should gather them? But he said, No, lest gathering the tares you should uproot the wheat(singular) with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest. And in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather the tares, and bind them into bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary. (Mat 13.24 – 30)


Jesus then explains His Parable...


Then sending away the crowds, Jesus came into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, Explain to us the parable of the darnel of the field. And answering, He said to them, The One sowing the good seed is the Son of Man. And the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the tares are the sons of the evil one. And the hostile one who sowed them is the Devil, and the harvest is the end of the age, and the angels are the reapers. Then as the tares are gathered and are consumed in the fire, so it will be in the completion of this age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His Kingdom all the offenses, and those who practice lawlessness. And they will throw them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth. Then the righteous will shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one having ears to hear, let him hear.(Mat 13.36 – 43)


You look; but you cannot see.

Your very own text states that Satan was here - but then left. He is no longer on the playing field. He is bound. I highlighted it in red (Mat 13.25) so that you can't ignore it anymore.

I also highlighted Mat 13.41 showing that Jesus is removing people from His Kingdom, the earth.

The playing field is the earth.

We are presently in the 1K period reigning with Jesus.

The Greek term utilized here is 'apēlthen', and is described in the lexicons as departing in an absolute manner.

The parable aptly describes Satan's departure as absolute in nature...i.e. he is bound.

Elvis has left the building.

And look at what the parable informs the reader...Satan sowed tares (plural) demons...as opposed to what Jesus sowed, good seed (singular).

See the difference?

Satan left behind his bad seed, the demons.

Again....

The parable is unmistakable, and solidifies my position that Satan is presently bound, and that his demons have been left behind to intermingle with mankind until the end.

Pretty simple.

 

[Apple7]

Show us exactly where is states "Satan is not present himself in the world but, instead, his presentment is in his demons" as you just boldly claimed, where does it read so, she me the very words please.

The verse literally says that Satan "HIMSELF" transforms into an angel of light, are you saying that this verse is wrong, and at the time it was written Satan was not transforming himself into an angel of light, despite the verse saying the opposite. Confirm for us please.

Do you EVER consider CONTEXT?

The very next verse uses the same Greek term, and applies it to the servants of Satan as the ones acting upon the evil deeds!

As already stated, Satan is most assuredly bound today, but he is unable to do anything in person...he can only remote control his demons.

Study up..

 

[Apple7]

We agree on this based on Rev 20:1-3, why because it literally states Satan was bound.

Now prove this happened at the time of Christ death, you've failed miserably so far its embarrassing.

A review of the obvious…

And I saw a Messenger coming down out of Heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain on his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled. And after these things, he must be set loose a little time. (Rev 20.1 – 3)

Here we have a ‘Messenger’ with the power to bind Satan.

Only God has the power to bind Satan.





As further proof that the Messenger described in Rev 20 is Jesus, we have previous scripture using the same exact verbiage, describing a ‘Messenger’ with the following attributes…

And I saw another strong Messenger coming down out of the heaven, having been clothed with a cloud, and a rainbow on the head; and his face as the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire. And he had in his hand a little scroll having been opened. And he placed his right foot on the sea, and the left on the land, and cried with a great voice, as a lion roars. And when he cried, the seven thunders spoke their sounds. (Rev 10.1 – 3)

Any student of scripture will readily recognize that this passage comes from Ezekiel, as thus…


And from above the expanse that was over their heads was an appearance like a stone of lapis lazuli azure blue, the likeness of a throne. And on the likeness of the throne was a likeness in appearance like a man on it from above. And I saw Him, like the color of polished bronze, looking like fire within it all around. From the appearance of His loins and upward, and from the appearance of His loins and downward, I saw Him looking like fire; and brightness to it all around. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of the rain, so appeared the brightness all around. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Jehovah. And I saw, and I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking. (Eze 1.26 – 28)

Clearly, and irrefutably, we have the Messenger of Revelation being described in the very same manner as that of Yahweh!

Thus…it becomes obvious that the Messenger described in both Rev 10 and Rev 20 is indeed The Son, Jesus.

Jesus, as God, bound Satan, and the binding occurred at The Cross.


Simple Biblical truth.

 

[Apple7]

You evaded the point, if Satan fallen angels can be referred to as gods why is Satan, the ruler of the wicked, not able to be referred to as a god? Posing a pony "challenge" won't hide your subtle deflection.

Already answered.

Your examples use a completely different word, in another language, that has a large breadth of meaning.

You are unable to show that Theos applies to Satan in ANY NT scripture.

You have failed.

The challenge still remains for you to show that Yahweh is applied to anyone but Yahweh.

 

[Apple7]

And how many of those translators that have rendered mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm as "God" in 2 Chron 35:21 and 2 Job 32:2 have translated mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm as "Angels" in Psalms 8:5? Answer please

Your reasoning is a fools argument, you use other translators translations of two verses as proof that mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm means God in Psalms 8:5, yet you ignore those very same translators understanding when it comes to the usage of mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm when read in Psalms 8:5.

You won't convince anyone about anything when you use that type of logic.

Try again.

Most translators render mê·’ĕ·lō·hîm as God in Psalm 8.5.

Again, your rebuttal fails to impress.

What can you do now?