Jesus' word is the center of Christianity.

Jacob

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Calvinists believe they ARE elect before they were born. They claim there is no way that they wouldn't accept Christ as Savior and Lord. They believe that many people were born to go to hell, that they were doomed before they were ever born; they have no chance of being saved.

This is different from foreknowledge or predestination, if these can relate to the elect, and if God looks down the corridor of time knowing who would choose Him.

The Calvinist may have come to believe he is chosen or elect because he realizes that it is the only way he could have ever been saved.

Are we saved by what God does or has done? And, can we choose God and Jesus to be saved?

The difficulty with these thoughts is that we don't create God after our own thoughts and get away with it. We must be informed of what is true from and by the word of God, the Bible.
 

God's Truth

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I believe I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in/inside of me. I believe all those who are born again (saved) do. To me that is not the same as saying Christ dwells in my heart. Or that Jesus lives inside my heart.
If it is not the same as Christ dwelling in you---how do you think he dwells in you???
 

Jacob

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Amen. Lay some scripture on me -

I'm not sure what you mean, but here is the word foreknowledge.

Acts 2:21-47 NASB - 21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.' 22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 "For David says of Him,'I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE;FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. 26 'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED;MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; 27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES,NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. 28 'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE;YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.' 29 "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, 35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."' 36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified." 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. 42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; 45 and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. 46 Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

1 Peter 1:1-5 NASB - 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
 

Jacob

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If it is not the same as Christ dwelling in you---how do you think he dwells in you???

I am a person and Christ dwells in me. The Holy Spirit dwells in me.

Romans 8:9 NASB - 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
 

God's Truth

New member
What do you mean receiving the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit take up residence in a person when they first believe?
No.
To believe and have faith are similar things. If a person believes and by faith they have the Holy Spirit (inside of them) it is not that they have the Holy Spirit inside of them by faith it is that they are a believer, have faith, and have the Holy Spirit.

We are actually given the Spirit of God. We can know we do, and it is not just believing you do.

The heart is different from the person.

The heart is not different from the person.

The person who is a believer has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. Does the Holy Spirit take up residence in the heart specifically? That is the question.
Yes.
The Holy Spirit is also in the mind, and can also fill the whole person.

By faith a person believes or a person believes by faith.

Believers have faith.

Believers must have living faith. Living faith is faith with obedience, or else it is dead fatih and cannot save anyone.

Believers are saved. Believers have faith. Believers obey God.

Not all believers obey.


Without the Holy Spirit you are not saved. A person has the Holy Spirit by faith. Is it possible for a believer to not have the Holy Spirit?

It is possible for a believer to not have the Holy Spirit, or else Paul would never ask those he asked to examine themselves.

These are the questions.

If you invite Christ or invite Jesus in/into your heart, is that receiving the Holy Spirit?

Of course; however, Jesus chooses to save the person. A person is not saved and receive the Holy Spirit merely for asking.
 

God's Truth

New member
I am a person and Christ dwells in me. The Holy Spirit dwells in me.

You say Christ dwells in you, and you say the Holy Spirit dwells in you---BUT, you say, they are NOT the same. Don't you know there is only ONE Spirit? How are you receiving two different Spirits when there is only one?
 

Jacob

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No.


We are actually given the Spirit of God. We can know we do, and it is not just believing you do.



The heart is not different from the person.


Yes.
The Holy Spirit is also in the mind, and can also fill the whole person.



Believers must have living faith. Living faith is faith with obedience, or else it is dead faith and cannot save anyone.



Not all believers obey.
Yes, they do.

Acts 5:32 NASB - 32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

2 Thessalonians 1:8 NASB - 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

1 Peter 4:17 NASB - 17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
It is possible for a believer to not have the Holy Spirit, or else Paul would never ask those he asked to examine themselves.



Of course; however, Jesus chooses to save the person. A person is not saved and receive the Holy Spirit merely for asking.
 

Jacob

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Banned
You say Christ dwells in you, and you say the Holy Spirit dwells in you---BUT, you say, they are NOT the same. Don't you know there is only ONE Spirit? How are you receiving two different Spirits when there is only one?
The verse I quoted implies that when one says the Spirit of Christ it is synonymous with the Spirit of God.
 

God's Truth

New member
I confirmed or acknowledged that you said I am confused. I don't think it is time to change your mind. I don't even know where to begin. But if you could not follow what I am saying then I just know you don't understand.

As for my conversion experience, I may have different things or occurrences from the same room coming into or built up into my mind. I don't know if they have to do with sensory perception, something that was wrong, a calling upon my life, or simply something that happened in the heavenlies that translates to or translated to my life as I know and knew it.

I am interested. Try to explain more to me what you mean. I want to understand you, and I want you to understand me, so we can talk about the deep things of God.
 

God's Truth

New member
Yes, they do.

No, they do not. Those who obey receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:32 NASB - 32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."



How do you ever get the next two scripture say all believers obey? How do you ever get that a person receives the Holy Spirit just by believing?



2 Thessalonians 1:8 NASB - 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

1 Peter 4:17 NASB - 17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
 

Danoh

New member
...If you are of Israel, and you are a part of the church, you are also a part of the body of Christ....
PHP:
Being in the church does not exclude a person from being a part of Israel either.

You, Meshak, and GT are severely confused.

So much so that, as you have just proven; to even attempt to shed some light your way, is to blind you further by your own resistence.

You three appear sincere. But that is as far as you are apparantly able to go.

Not far, at all...
 

God's Truth

New member
What I meant to say is, the Body of Christ (Church) today is made up of both Jew and Gentile alike. The Jews before the Body of Christ came about, were under the Law and the Gentiles were not.

The scriptures plainly say the LAW CAME FROM MOSES, and GRACE came from Jesus Christ.
 

Jacob

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I am interested. Try to explain more to me what you mean. I want to understand you, and I want you to understand me, so we can talk about the deep things of God.

Again, I don't know how to explain it. It has nothing to do with me. Only what I was experiencing. Something to do with Christ, even the title or name Christ. Accepting or receiving Christ. And I don't know what it was. I invited Jesus into my heart or received Christ, I think that is it. The other sensory perception was with my mind and visual, and removed from the prayer I prayed (or the request of God for or of Jesus in specific to come into my heart), that which I am talking about. I don't know if that which occurred effected change, God changing something, but somehow I connect this prayer or ask to this.

I do not know what you mean by the deep things of God.
 

God's Truth

New member
You, Meshak, and GT are severely confused.

So much so that, as you have just proven; to even attempt to shed some light your way, is to blind you further by your own resistence.

You three appear sincere. But that is as far as you are apparantly able to go.

Not far, at all...

You cannot even debate me, you can only insult. You do not even know the differences from Jacob, Meshak, and my beliefs.
 

God's Truth

New member
Again, I don't know how to explain it. It has nothing to do with me. Only what I was experiencing. Something to do with Christ, even the title or name Christ. Accepting or receiving Christ. And I don't know what it was. I invited Jesus into my heart or received Christ, I think that is it. The other sensory perception was with my mind and visual, and removed from the prayer I prayed (or the request of God for or of Jesus in specific to come into my heart), that which I am talking about. I don't know if that which occurred effected change, God changing something, but somehow I connect this prayer or ask to this.

I do not know what you mean by the deep things of God.

In what ways do you believe you were changed? You must try harder to explain, or how can we talk about it? The deep things of God is His Truth that I want to discuss. I would like to find someone that can speak about the things I speak about, instead of going against what the scriptures say.
 

Jacob

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I am the one that told you that, and you are the one that said they are not the same.

We have had a past conversation, and I thank you for that. I can see it for myself, and I believe I remember having recognized this in my past. The words are not the same. Synonymous not in word, words, or terminology or these phrases, but because the verse implies that they are the same. Synonymous carries with it the idea of same, but in a particular way. Not that the words are the same. The same in terms of Theological terminology or concept maybe? How can I (How I can) describe this, I don't know. :)
 
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