Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."

[marhig]

The Trinity was established before the canon of scripture we know today was established.
But most importantly, any of the apostles or early Christians would have told you he was God- it is how he was venerated- not as an angel or some demigod, but as God- it is thick in the entire history.

What was a conundrum for a time was not about Christ being God, but exactly how God is more than one being- the Trinity came as an explanation, which was confirmed through referencing the Book of Isaiah along the NT epistles.

If anyone is deceived, it is most certainly you people- to your individual selves and among yourselves, you are all impossible to convince because you simply do not want to conform to the dogma.

So stop making slanderous accusations of the Trinity being some doctrine of Satan or some other such thing, and being up in arms about someone insinuating you aren't saved for not believing it. The truth of the matter is that you're being vain and dishonest, and that is something a Christian ought not do.

I think you need to read the Bible again, the teachings are clear. There is one God, who is the father, and one son who is the Christ. There is no trinity or teachings that say must believe in the trinity to be saved and no God the son and no father of God!

I believe in what Jesus says, that life eternal is this, to know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent!

 

[marhig]

For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit:
and these three are ONE. - 1 John 5:7

God has eternally existed as a three-some

John 17

I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me through their message. I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.

“I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one.I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me. Father, I want these whom you have given me to be with me where I am. Then they can see all the glory you gave me because you loved me even before the world began. O righteous Father, the world doesn’t know you, but I do; and these disciples know you sent me. I have revealed you to them, and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them, and I will be in them.”

 

[meshak]

You are purposely avoiding answering my sincere question. Is it typical for JWs to be evasive, especially in the MEANING of the terms they use?

You have nothing legit for your claim and all you have is twisted version of testimony.

 

[beameup]

You have nothing legit for your claim and all you have is twisted version of testimony.

Look, I was studying with the JWs in the 1950s when I was a teen and they were using the King James.
They brain-washed my grandmother, as she was a lonely new widow and had no knowledge of the Bible.
How's that for a testimony?

BTW, where is Shadrach & Abednego?

For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Logos, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are ONE.

 

[6days]

Omniscience. I'm sure you're aware of the verse that speaks of Jesus not knowing the day of his coming, but only his Father. Ring a bell?*

The son of man was not omniscient. The Son of God was and is omniscient

 

[Tambora]

Anyone that thinks GOD created a lesser God is foolish.

Isaiah 43:10 KJV
(10) Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

But if 'God' is all powerful, he could (and likely did) create lesser gods (divine personalities), angels, cosmic beings, spirits, elementals...who serve in various capacities in the grand universe.

Also, the term 'elohim' (God/god/gods) is used for angels as well as for men - see Psalm 82. The Jewish judges and leaders at a particular time of rulership, where 'elohim'! Jesus even quotes this passage to put his detractors in their place, showing that he was not wrong calling himself the 'Son of God', since 'God' had already pronounced the Jewish judges to be 'elohim' (God/gods), the children of the Most High. The deeper truth revealed there is that we are all children of God, and to accept our 'sonship' is no proud boast or claim, but our natural inheritance, but that's another chapter.

Note that even if Jesus is a lesser 'god', 'demi-god', 'archon', 'aeon', 'luminary', 'avatar', etc....nothing is taken away from the one True God, the Universal Father. That Infinite ONE ever remains 'God', solely, all alone, since there is no other source of existence. Besides 'God' there is other 'God', because 'God' is One without a second. There is only God and the creation of God that exists, all within that one infinity. God is the Sole reality and life that fills all in all. Pure Spirit. Pure Energy. Pure Consciousness. 'God' sends out from Himself any number of angelic sons of God, cosmic beings/forces, Aeons...and upholds the totality of the cosmos by his own word and will. So seeing Jesus in a way that is not exactly like the Orthodox Christian conception or according to her 'creeds' does not mean that that view is false, but that other points of view, alternative interpretations and translations DO EXIST. (despite dogmatic protests). These perspectives or forms of Christology, may be just as good, if not better than an 'orthodox' one. (although the religious groups in power particularly in the 4th and 5th centuries already decided for themselves which Christological views were heresy, and which got the stamp of their orthodoxy). This is something each must decide for himself, as he accepts the theology of the creeds, or innovates his own theology - and 'God' (Real God) allows one the perfect freedom to do such.

Now lets consider again the possibility that 'God' COULD create other gods out from his own divine essence...other agents or agencies that represent him and carry out his creative and redemptive work in the universe. Why couldn't He? Is there not already a vast cosmic hierarchy of sons of God and angels existing? The very fact that 'God' has sons (literal offsprings), shows that he certainly does create beings like himself (that comprise the divine hierarchy, the angel orders and all other ministering spirits), AND creates Man in his own image and likeness. That's a lot of beings created from God's own Being (Pure Spirit Energy) and then man being God's own image and likeness. No wonder they can be called elohim

I don't feel like playing the "if a frog had wings" game.

GOD says that no God was formed before or after HIM.
None, zilch, nada.
GOD did not make a God at any time.

 

[Tambora]

For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit:
and these three are ONE. - 1 John 5:7

God has eternally existed as a three-some

Yeppers.

Throughout scripture we are shown that more than one (a numerical individual) can be called one (a single unity).

 

[6days]

The son of man was not omniscient. The Son of God was and is omniscient

Wait... hold my horses. Now after thinking about this, I wonder what others think... there are likely far better answers to freelights question than what I gave.

 

[KingdomRose]

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me [YHWH] every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. - Isaiah 45:23

For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord [YHWH], every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. - Romans 14:11
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; - Philippians 2:10

Every knee

You neglected to quote the very next verse in Philippians, that must be read also, to be fair. This shows the importance of reading something IN CONTEXT. Actually, let's read the previous verse as well:

"For this reason also [being obedient and dying on a 'cross'], God highly exalted him [Jesus], and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow...and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD, THE FATHER."

All glory goes to the Father, through Jesus Christ.

 

[KingdomRose]

El Gibbohr...the Mighty God...the Everlasting Father.

God does not have different degrees of Himself. The Lord thy God is one, but uses many names to describe Himself. (El Shaddai, El Elyon, Jehovah, El Olam, Elohim, Adonai and many others.*

Likewise Jesus has many names to describe Him. Ex.“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” Rev. 22:13 the Almighty Rev.1:8, the creator John 1:3 the author and finisher of our faith... etc

You are right---God doesn't have different degrees of Himself. He is EL SHADDAI, "God Almighty," and ONLY Jehovah is called El Shaddai.

The "names" you mention are not names but TITLES.

Yes, Jesus created everything....it says "all things came into being THROUGHhim." (John 1:3, NASB) Jehovah created through Jesus; the power and authority was Jehovah's, and Jehovah worked THROUGH Jesus, giving Jesus the power to create. Jehovah is the SOURCE of power and authority to do anything.

Jesus is not the Alpha and Omega. See the thread that JerryShugart started about Jesus and Jehovah being the same Person. Alpha & Omega are discussed on the last couple of pages.

 

[KingdomRose]

Yes...the Son of man rightfully said "My Father is greater than I".

Jesus as the Son of God also made many claims.*

And Jesus as the Son of God (which he has always been) is STILL subordinate to the Father.

"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and GOD IS THE HEAD OF CHRIST." (I Corinthians 11:3, NASB)

 

[KingdomRose]

My exact words were "In what way is the Son of God not equal to Jehovah God. IOW What attibute does the Father have, that the Son lacks?".

Well, (1)the Father, Jehovah, cannot die. He is the Most High and is the Source of all power and life. (See Psalm 83:18, KJV).) Jesus could die, and he did. Whereupon Jehovah raised him back to life. (Acts 2:32-36)

That's one characteristic that Jesus didn't have.

Another is (2)supreme authority. Jesus always said that he couldn't do anything on his own, but he did what the Father told him to do, and just like the Father did things. (John 5:19; John 12:49,50)


I think those are two pretty important and relevant non-attributes of the Son, compared to the Father (who will someday be "all things to everyone" when Jesus hands the Kingdom back to Him after the Thousand-Year Reign (I Corinthians 15:24-28).

 

[KingdomRose]

Isn't JWs and mormonism a cult made by some catholic? Why are you spreading their doctrines?

Hi, Nonon. Mormonism may be a cult, but Jehovah's Witnesses are not, and neither was "made by some Catholic." Mormonism started with crazy Joseph Smith back in the 1800s, and Jehovah's Witnesses merely WENT BACK TO THE ORIGINAL TEACHINGS OF JESUS, grouped together by Charles Taze Russell (in 1870) who was not affiliated with Catholicism. He was used by Jehovah to start up His work again after 2 thousand years of Apostate Christianity. The Bible said that true Christians would be evident in THE LAST DAYS, which we are living in today. (Daniel 12:4; Matthew 13:37-39)

I don't spread anything close to Mormon doctrines. Just what Jesus taught.

 

[KingdomRose]

“I and the Father are one.” - John 10:30

Just like Jesus and his disciples are one. Are you at all familiar with what Jesus prayed to his Father in John chapter 17?

"I make request, not concerning these only [his Apostles at that time], but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; in order that they may all be ONE, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they may also be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that THEY MAY BE ONE JUST AS WE ARE ONE." (John 17:20-22)


Does that mean the disciples are also God? Can you understand now what being "one" means?

 

[KingdomRose]

Do you not know that believing in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ is requisite for salvation?

Paul says in 1Co 15 that you have believed in vain/futility.

Paul didn't say we must believe in a bodily resurrection---a physical body, that is. Christ was resurrected in SPIRIT, and that is clearly written by both Paul and Peter. Is it that you don't think that a spirit body is real? Jehovah is a spirit, and that fact is quite real. (John 4:24) Jesus left his flesh behind; if he took it back, he would be taking back his sacrifice for our sins.

"Also it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living soul.' The last Adam [Christ] became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinth.15:45, NASB) Haven't you seen this before?

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that he might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit." (I Peter 3:18, NASB) How can you twist that?

It wouldn't be prudent to argue that Christ appeared physically to the Apostles and also ate with them. He could easily materialize a physical body, just as angels had appeared to Abraham in centuries past. (Remember when they came to tell Abraham and Sarah that they were going to have a son in their old age?) They were appearing in materialized physical bodies, and they ate food.

Also do you recall that when Jesus appeared to the disciples (John 20:19,26) the doors had been locked? Yet he appeared suddenly among them. Could a physical body go through a door? Hello.

 

[KingdomRose]

In otherwords, you have no answers. It's all just theology created by Watchtower Society, a "non-prophet" organization.

Here is a question: Did Jesus die for you, as an individual, and your sins?

Beameup, Meshak isn't a Jehovah's Witness. She just has more sense than most people. About certain things.

I have answers, and I hope you read all of my recent posts.

I will say that yes, Jesus died for me as an individual for my sins.


BTW, Jehovah being worshiped as God Almighty and believing that Jesus is His Son is Scriptural, not something "created" by the WTS.

 

[steko]

Paul didn't say we must believe in a bodily resurrection---a physical body, that is. Christ was resurrected in SPIRIT, and that is clearly written by both Paul and Peter. Is it that you don't think that a spirit body is real? Jehovah is a spirit, and that fact is quite real. (John 4:24) Jesus left his flesh behind; if he took it back, he would be taking back his sacrifice for our sins.

Therein lies the cause of your blindness to the rest of the essential truths of Scripture.

Paul says that you have believed in vain/futility.

 

[freelight]

frogs with wings or talking donkeys ? take ur pick..........

frogs with wings or talking donkeys ? take ur pick..........

I don't feel like playing the "if a frog had wings" game.

GOD says that no God was formed before or after HIM.
None, zilch, nada.
GOD did not make a God at any time.

Hi Tam

My former commentary holds, if you take the time to actually read it. Note that I did not claim that 'God' the Original Creator, created an exact duplicate of himself, or COULD create another being such as himself that has all the same eternal/infinite/absolute and ultimate qualities or attributes as himself, since He has no beginning or end and is the ONLY Life-source that has always been. (something uncreated cannot create another uncreated reality, unless it is but an extension of himself, and not a true creation). Thus I maintain the context of a true monotheism or 'monism' in my system of metaphysics.

Yes, there is only One Universal Father from which all things and beings spring, because that One is the Only One Source, the Sole Life apart from which nothing could exist. If you hold that this eternal 'God' is (or has) a personality, and exists within a Trinity with 2 other divine personalities, that's fine,...other religious traditions and schools of thought also have trinities - we also understand that this can be sustained within a monotheistic context with a little stretching of metaphysics,...thanks to neo-platonics from which church fathers drew from heavily, especially within all the Trinity-related battles against the Arians and others - anyways...as I've shared....it makes no difference to me, since its pretty much 'cosmetics' involved here, conceptually speaking, and how one relates to 'God' whether a singular Person/Presence or being a company of persons, but that's the fun of it eh?

Both Unitarians and Trinitarians believe the same essential gospel of Jesus, and the gospel of Paul (variously interpreted), so that John 3:16 as a primary passage still holds. It HOLDS whether you accept an orthodox definition of the Trinity or not. God still sent His Son, and by believing in his Son and his message, you can have eternal life. Knock yourself out.

 

[freelight]

The son of man was not omniscient. The Son of God was and is omniscient

That's fine if you want to differentiate 'Son of Man' (being Jesus human side aspect) and 'Son of God' (perhaps being Jesus divine Sonship status) but this is a matter of defining. I have also held that the title 'Son of Man' has to do more with his humanity being a prophet of 'prophetic voice' for 'God'. In which case prophets like Enoch, Ezekiel, Daniel also use the 'title'. Some would argue however that the 'Son of Man' refers also to the 'Messiah' in his divine Sonship status as well, so who knows. In any case,....sure,...so could assume that Jesus as a MAN was limited by his very human nature, hence he claimed to not know the hour of the coming of the Son of Man. One question would be is this - "Is Jesus still limited by his human nature?" - assuming his current status in the fusion of the hypostatic union? - once we dive into all this stuff, over how his 'human' and 'divine' nature are compounded or how they 'relate' or 'synthesize' we join the confused Christological debates of centuries past. So, it all depends how you define the terms, your own preferred Christology, etc. This further gets blurry as you consider just how much Jesus had any control over which divine power to willinging suppress versus what he was lawfully limited by being a 100% pure human being. And so on.....

 

[freelight]

The Comma Johanneum fall-out......

The Comma Johanneum fall-out......

For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit:
and these three are ONE. - 1 John 5:7

God has eternally existed as a three-some

Not to split hairs here,

But those who have done their research (this is backed up by solid scholarship) know that the The Comma Johanneum is not in the oldest most ancient Greek manuscripts, but only a few late ones and mostly in the latin. It is therefore IMO a later insertion (interpolation) and could have been a gloss from a scribe, a commentary inserted into the original text, by Trinitarian scribes. See my blog post here about with accompanying links. The verse is therefore a convenient attempt to promote the Trinity, or at least give credence to a Trinitarian concept into the verse, correlating it with the 3 earthly witnesses being the water, blood and Spirit. 1 John 5:7 is an epic fail if being used as a Trinity proof-text.