I don't trust you are sincere Jesus' servant. but I have no problem answering this question.
I am Jesus' servant and I believe Jesus was sent to save the world from our sins by His Father.
This is all Jesus' word. And I believe all His word.
Jesus SEPARATE from Jehovah; calls Jehovah "my God."
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I don't trust you are sincere Jesus' servant. but I have no problem answering this question.
I am Jesus' servant and I believe Jesus was sent to save the world from our sins by His Father.
This is all Jesus' word. And I believe all His word.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
One substance, many forms.....One Personality-source,...many personifications.......
One substance, many forms.....One Personality-source,...many personifications.......
Yes, 'God' is One in nature, being , identity. Could you share any commentary from any ancient or modern traditional-orthodox Jewish rabbis that teach a trinity of personalities comprising a 'Godhead' in this particular passage?
:stuck:
My esoteric insights into the meaning of the Shema are shared in Jacob's thread here.
I share in my earlier post here,....take a Unitarian or Trinitarian view if you like, 'God' is still 'God',...and indivisible essential unity of pure spirit-energy-consciousness. Slap on any conceptual form or name on this 'Deity', personalize it all you like,....it is still One, yet in creation expresses in manyness,....creation includes the unity and diversification of all, - all springing from one central source, from whence all potentials and possibilities arise. This One is IT (there is no 'other' besides 'God', pure spirit-energy) - so as my last and other commentaries show,....its like arguing over what 'cosmetics' are the best or most appropriate to each one's face (personal preference, philosophical leaning, theological flavor). We choose our theology according to what resonates closes to our approximation of truth. Note that any point of view, opinion or belief is subject to change. Only the changeless Itself, is unchanging in essence, - all else is relative and conditional.
Spirit is One, forms are many.
In-joy!
One substance, many forms.....One Personality-source,...many personifications.......
Yes, 'God' is One in nature, being , identity. Could you share any commentary from any ancient or modern traditional-orthodox Jewish rabbis that teach a trinity of personalities comprising a 'Godhead' in this particular passage?
:stuck:My esoteric insights into the meaning of the Shema are shared in Jacob's thread here.
I share in my earlier post here,....take a Unitarian or Trinitarian view if you like, 'God' is still 'God',...and indivisible essential unity of pure spirit-energy-consciousness. Slap on any conceptual form or name on this 'Deity', personalize it all you like,....it is still One, yet in creation expresses in manyness,....creation includes the unity and diversification of all, - all springing from one central source, from whence all potentials and possibilities arise. This One is IT
(there is no 'other' besides 'God', pure spirit-energy) - so as my last and other commentaries show,....its like arguing over what 'cosmetics' are the best or most appropriate to each one's face (personal preference, philosophical leaning, theological flavor). We choose our theology according to what resonates closes to our approximation of truth. Note that any point of view, opinion or belief is subject to change. Only the changeless Itself, is unchanging in essence, - all else is relative and conditional.Spirit is One, forms are many.
In-joy!
6days
New member
Paul was an ancient traditional- orthodox Jew. He came to believe that Jesus the Son and the 'Comforter' were the God of Deut.6:4. *Various scripture confirms Paul's understanding such as 1Cor. 3:16 and Rom. 8:9. In verses like Rom. 8:26 we see this ancient Jew describing how the one God he believed in, acted as distinct and individual personalities.freelight said:
beameup
New member
You are purposely avoiding answering my sincere question. Is it typical for JWs to be evasive, especially in the MEANING of the terms they use?
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Lets look closer......
Lets look closer......
Yet you did not provide me with one orthodox Jewish commentary that believes this is speaking of a trinity of divine personalities or 'gods' within a 'Godhead'. Perhapss it is because it is NOT orthodox teaching within Judaism. Otherwise my understanding of the Shema, previously shared stands, until more revelation unfolds - I ever hold to the essence of the Shema as I understand it, since God and creation are one, as nothing can exist outside of that one infinity. - while this is more Unitarian in nature, or in my more liberal expansion of it, 'monistic' (pan-en-theistic)...I have no problem in entertaining a Trinitarian or tri-une Godhead concept, but my view is not limited to the orthodox Christian concept of such a Trinity, being a prescribed definition dogmatically assumed and crystallized into creed.
That Paul was an ancient traditional-orthodox Jew, perhaps once upon a time, but he soon left that tradition for his own synthesis of pagan mystery religion motifs, Greek philosophical concepts/metaphysics, gnostic undertones and cosmology and his very own personal revelations, visions and spiritual experiences. In fact "his gospel" is quite frankly his very own, and he admits that much, with a good does of humility at times, but with equally zestful boasting at other times. Paul is an enigma, if we can even really get a definitive hold on who Paul even was historically speaking. But that's another subject we've treated in Paul threads elsewhere.
As far as your analysis above goes, I don't see where you get Paul assuming a Trinitarian view within the Shema. If he were true to orthodox Judaism, he would ever affirm only the oneness, simplicity and singularity of Deity thru-out. He does seem to show in his letters a clear distinction between the Father and the Son, between the Sender and the one sent, between God and Christ. The passages you quote above merely speak of believers being filled with the Spirit of God, each soul being a temple of God. How does this indicate or prove that God acts as distinct and individual personalities? Are you saying God acts thru various human personalities, and this is God manifesting? Otherwise, I see no proof of a Trinity, much less a 'Godhead' by using these passages. I don't see a correlation.
Lets look closer......
Yet you did not provide me with one orthodox Jewish commentary that believes this is speaking of a trinity of divine personalities or 'gods' within a 'Godhead'. Perhapss it is because it is NOT orthodox teaching within Judaism. Otherwise my understanding of the Shema, previously shared stands, until more revelation unfolds
- I ever hold to the essence of the Shema as I understand it, since God and creation are one, as nothing can exist outside of that one infinity. - while this is more Unitarian in nature, or in my more liberal expansion of it, 'monistic' (pan-en-theistic)...I have no problem in entertaining a Trinitarian or tri-une Godhead concept, but my view is not limited to the orthodox Christian concept of such a Trinity, being a prescribed definition dogmatically assumed and crystallized into creed. That Paul was an ancient traditional-orthodox Jew, perhaps once upon a time, but he soon left that tradition for his own synthesis of pagan mystery religion motifs, Greek philosophical concepts/metaphysics, gnostic undertones and cosmology and his very own personal revelations, visions and spiritual experiences. In fact "his gospel" is quite frankly his very own, and he admits that much, with a good does of humility at times, but with equally zestful boasting at other times. Paul is an enigma, if we can even really get a definitive hold on who Paul even was historically speaking. But that's another subject we've treated in Paul threads elsewhere.
As far as your analysis above goes, I don't see where you get Paul assuming a Trinitarian view within the Shema. If he were true to orthodox Judaism, he would ever affirm only the oneness, simplicity and singularity of Deity thru-out. He does seem to show in his letters a clear distinction between the Father and the Son, between the Sender and the one sent, between God and Christ. The passages you quote above merely speak of believers being filled with the Spirit of God, each soul being a temple of God. How does this indicate or prove that God acts as distinct and individual personalities? Are you saying God acts thru various human personalities, and this is God manifesting? Otherwise, I see no proof of a Trinity, much less a 'Godhead' by using these passages. I don't see a correlation.
beameup
New member
Of course, you haven't read what the Early Church Fathers wrote in the 1st century and 2nd century.
There were plenty of heretical doctrines (like Gnosticism) floating around, even in the time of Paul.
Nothing "new" here on TOL, all the HERESIES have long been exposed as "doctrines of demons".
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
God creates out of his own nature, image and likeness.......
God creates out of his own nature, image and likeness.......
But if 'God' is all powerful, he could (and likely did) create lesser gods (divine personalities), angels, cosmic beings, spirits, elementals...who serve in various capacities in the grand universe.
Also, the term 'elohim' (God/god/gods) is used for angels as well as for men - see Psalm 82. The Jewish judges and leaders at a particular time of rulership, where 'elohim'! Jesus even quotes this passage to put his detractors in their place, showing that he was not wrong calling himself the 'Son of God', since 'God' had already pronounced the Jewish judges to be 'elohim' (God/gods), the children of the Most High. The deeper truth revealed there is that we are all children of God, and to accept our 'sonship' is no proud boast or claim, but our natural inheritance, but that's another chapter.
Note that even if Jesus is a lesser 'god', 'demi-god', 'archon', 'aeon', 'luminary', 'avatar', etc....nothing is taken away from the one True God, the Universal Father. That Infinite ONE ever remains 'God', solely, all alone, since there is no other source of existence. Besides 'God' there is other 'God', because 'God' is One without a second. There is only God and the creation of God that exists, all within that one infinity. God is the Sole reality and life that fills all in all. Pure Spirit. Pure Energy. Pure Consciousness. 'God' sends out from Himself any number of angelic sons of God, cosmic beings/forces, Aeons...and upholds the totality of the cosmos by his own word and will. So seeing Jesus in a way that is not exactly like the Orthodox Christian conception or according to her 'creeds' does not mean that that view is false, but that other points of view, alternative interpretations and translations DO EXIST. (despite dogmatic protests). These perspectives or forms of Christology, may be just as good, if not better than an 'orthodox' one. (although the religious groups in power particularly in the 4th and 5th centuries already decided for themselves which Christological views were heresy, and which got the stamp of their orthodoxy). This is something each must decide for himself, as he accepts the theology of the creeds, or innovates his own theology - and 'God' (Real God) allows one the perfect freedom to do such.
Now lets consider again the possibility that 'God' COULD create other gods out from his own divine essence...other agents or agencies that represent him and carry out his creative and redemptive work in the universe. Why couldn't He? Is there not already a vast cosmic hierarchy of sons of God and angels existing? The very fact that 'God' has sons (literal offsprings), shows that he certainly does create beings like himself (that comprise the divine hierarchy, the angel orders and all other ministering spirits), AND creates Man in his own image and likeness. That's a lot of beings created from God's own Being (Pure Spirit Energy) and then man being God's own image and likeness. No wonder they can be called elohim
God creates out of his own nature, image and likeness.......
But if 'God' is all powerful, he could (and likely did) create lesser gods (divine personalities), angels, cosmic beings, spirits, elementals...who serve in various capacities in the grand universe.
Also, the term 'elohim' (God/god/gods) is used for angels as well as for men - see Psalm 82. The Jewish judges and leaders at a particular time of rulership, where 'elohim'! Jesus even quotes this passage to put his detractors in their place, showing that he was not wrong calling himself the 'Son of God', since 'God' had already pronounced the Jewish judges to be 'elohim' (God/gods), the children of the Most High. The deeper truth revealed there is that we are all children of God, and to accept our 'sonship' is no proud boast or claim, but our natural inheritance, but that's another chapter.
Note that even if Jesus is a lesser 'god', 'demi-god', 'archon', 'aeon', 'luminary', 'avatar', etc....nothing is taken away from the one True God, the Universal Father. That Infinite ONE ever remains 'God', solely, all alone, since there is no other source of existence. Besides 'God' there is other 'God', because 'God' is One without a second. There is only God and the creation of God that exists, all within that one infinity. God is the Sole reality and life that fills all in all. Pure Spirit. Pure Energy. Pure Consciousness. 'God' sends out from Himself any number of angelic sons of God, cosmic beings/forces, Aeons...and upholds the totality of the cosmos by his own word and will. So seeing Jesus in a way that is not exactly like the Orthodox Christian conception or according to her 'creeds' does not mean that that view is false, but that other points of view, alternative interpretations and translations DO EXIST. (despite dogmatic protests). These perspectives or forms of Christology, may be just as good, if not better than an 'orthodox' one. (although the religious groups in power particularly in the 4th and 5th centuries already decided for themselves which Christological views were heresy, and which got the stamp of their orthodoxy). This is something each must decide for himself, as he accepts the theology of the creeds, or innovates his own theology
- and 'God' (Real God) allows one the perfect freedom to do such.Now lets consider again the possibility that 'God' COULD create other gods out from his own divine essence...other agents or agencies that represent him and carry out his creative and redemptive work in the universe. Why couldn't He? Is there not already a vast cosmic hierarchy of sons of God and angels existing? The very fact that 'God' has sons (literal offsprings), shows that he certainly does create beings like himself (that comprise the divine hierarchy, the angel orders and all other ministering spirits), AND creates Man in his own image and likeness. That's a lot of beings created from God's own Being (Pure Spirit Energy) and then man being God's own image and likeness. No wonder they can be called elohim
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
knees bow to Abba Alone.........
knees bow to Abba Alone.........
Every knee worships 'God' alone, who alone is worthy of worship. It is done 'at the name' or 'through the name' of Jesus, because Jesus is God's anointed, his Son, his Messenger, his Agent, his Representative. No need to deify the messenger,...but you can if you like. But only Deity alone is to be worshipped. It is also thru God's Messiah that we worship Him, the personalities of these great servants of the LORD are not worshipped as 'God', but we worship 'God' thru their service, office and calling, as they represent 'God'. Note the Christ ever points or directs our worship to the Father.
knees bow to Abba Alone.........
Every knee worships 'God' alone, who alone is worthy of worship. It is done 'at the name' or 'through the name' of Jesus, because Jesus is God's anointed, his Son, his Messenger, his Agent, his Representative. No need to deify the messenger,...but you can if you like. But only Deity alone is to be worshipped. It is also thru God's Messiah that we worship Him, the personalities of these great servants of the LORD are not worshipped as 'God', but we worship 'God' thru their service, office and calling, as they represent 'God'. Note the Christ ever points or directs our worship to the Father.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Omniscience. I'm sure you're aware of the verse that speaks of Jesus not knowing the day of his coming, but only his Father. Ring a bell?
marhig
Well-known member
Really? So where does it say, in the Bible that we have to believe in the triune God to be saved? You judge others yet you can't back up what you say with scripture.
Nowhere in the Bible is it taught that there are three Gods in one, only one God the father and the Christ his son. Nowhere are we taught to worship a triune God, we are told to worship the father in spirit and in truth, nowhere are we told to pray to a triune God, we are told to pray daily to the father.
The doctrine of devil's isn't that we know the only true God who is the father and Jesus Christ whom he has sent, this is the truth, the false doctrine is that we should believe in a three in one God which isn't in the Bible, and to believe that we belong to God no matter what we do and that we can live as we please, and God will be ok with that, no he won't. Once saved always saved, like the trinity is a false teaching, and only the devil would teach that salvation and still sinning goes hand in hand.
You need to read the Bible without your ingrained false teachings on your mind, before you say others are taught of devil's, because to believe that God the father is the only true God is in the Bible, and to believe that Jesus is his son is in the Bible. What isn't there is to believe in and worship a triune God and, and God the son. They are not in the Bible, so I would be careful who you class as belonging to Satan. You don't know their hearts, and with respect, it was those who made up the trinity doctrine who were deceived Satan and his lies.
There is one God, the father, and one son of God who is the Christ and that's Jesus, and that's what it says in the Bible. And that's what I believe, if you believe that this is a doctrine of demons then that's between you and God.
beameup
New member
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD [YHWH], to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:9-11
The NAME is above every NAME
beameup
New member
marhig
Well-known member
I think you need to read those verses again without your trinitarian son-shades on!
Philippians 2 9-11
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things.under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
It says God exhalted Jesus, and that God has given him a name which is above every name. So God is above Christ, and it says that we should confess that Jesus is the lord to the glory of the father. Everything we do through Jesus is to glorify the father who it says above, is God. Jesus Christ is lord, but the father is God. As it says in the verses which you yourself have quoted.
beameup
New member
And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
- 1 John 5:11-12
Take your blinders off.
marhig
Well-known member
What's that got to do with a trinitarian God?
The life the son has is the word of God through the spirit!
John 6
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
marhig
Well-known member
By the way, those verses again show us that God has given us eternal life through his son, showing us that the son isn't God.
Also, what makes you think that those who don't believe in the trinity, don't have the son? Where does it say that in the Bible? You'll know who has the son, they will be denying themselves and turning from their flesh and doing the will of God, and thus following Jesus!
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
I do believe on the name of the son of God!
The Trinity was established before the canon of scripture we know today was established.
But most importantly, any of the apostles or early Christians would have told you he was God- it is how he was venerated- not as an angel or some demigod, but as God- it is thick in the entire history.
What was a conundrum for a time was not about Christ being God, but exactly how God is more than one being- the Trinity came as an explanation, which was confirmed through referencing the Book of Isaiah along the NT epistles.
If anyone is deceived, it is most certainly you people- to your individual selves and among yourselves, you are all impossible to convince because you simply do not want to conform to the dogma.
So stop making slanderous accusations of the Trinity being some doctrine of Satan or some other such thing, and being up in arms about someone insinuating you aren't saved for not believing it. The truth of the matter is that you're being vain and dishonest, and that is something a Christian ought not do.
beameup
New member
For there are three that bear record in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit:
and these three are ONE. - 1 John 5:7
God has eternally existed as a three-some
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