Jesus is God.

lifeisgood

New member
Bs"d


Spoiler
Echad

The other main argument from the Hebrew used to teach that God is a “plural” entity is that the Hebrew word echad in the shema of Deuteronomy 6:4 means, not a simple “one”, but rather a “compound unity” of one, a “togetherness”. Those who teach this will often also teach than there is a different word for a “simple” one, yachid, so that the absence of this word in Deuteronomy 6:4 is, apparently to them, significant.

First, it should be noted that when one learns the Hebrew numbers, it is echad, not yachid, that is the Hebrew for the number “one”: echad is one, shenayim is two, shalosh is three, arba is four, etc.

Any Hebrew grammar book, whether of Biblical or modern Hebrew, would demonstrate that echad, not yachid, is the everyday Hebrew word for the numeral “one”. And when one looks in the Tanakh itself at the frequency and usage of the two words – echad and yachid – it is very quickly and easily seen that echad, not yachid, is in fact the standard Hebrew word for a simple one.

Echad is used over 900 times in the Hebrew Bible, making it the most frequently used adjective in the Tanakh.

Here are some examples of its usage where the word “one” is translated from echad: “one place” (Gen. 1:9); “one man” (Gen. 42:13); “one law” (Ex. 12:49); “one side” (Ex. 25:12); “one ewe lamb” (Lev. 14:10); “one of his brethren” (Lev. 25:48); “one rod” (Num. 17:3); “one soul” (Num. 31:28); “one of these cities” (Deut. 4:42); “one way” (Deut. 28:7); “one ephah” (1 Sam. 1:24); “one went out into the field” (2 Kings 4:39); “one shepherd” (Ezek. 37:24); “one basket” (Jer. 24:2); “one [thing]” (Ps. 27:4); “Two are better than one” (Ecc. 4:9); “one day or two” (Ezra 10:13).

Sometimes it is simply part of a number, like “eleven” (echad + ‘asar, one plus ten), in , for example Genesis 32:22. Sometimes it is as well translated by an indefinite article (a[n]): “a new cart” (1 Sam. 6:7); “a juniper tree” (1 Kings 19:4,5); “a book” (Jer. 51:60).

Perhaps most importantly, echad clearly has the meaning of single, alone, ONLY one, or JUST one, the ideal of a limit of one (Num. 10:4; Josh. 17:14; Esth. 4:11; Isa. 51:2). In Deuteronomy 17:6, for example, it really isn’t precise English to translate echad merely as “one”. For if the “one” witness referred to is the second of the third witness, then that one witness is enough to convict the hypothetical person of murder. The meaning is that a person must not be put to death of the evidence of only one witness (which is the way the NRSV translates it). Echad means “one” and ONLY one.

Some make the argument that because echad is used in passages such as Gen. 1:5 (evening and morning were “day one [echad]”, or “first day”), Gen. 2:24 (a husband and wife shall be “one” flesh) and Ezek. 37:17 (two sticks are to become “one” stick), echad is therefore meant to be understood as some kind of a compound unity.

To begin with, such examples make up but a very small minority of the uses of echad, the vast majority being of the variety listed previously.

It is improper exegesis to define a word on the basis of a small percentage of its usage.

But even this extreme minority of usage does not mean that echad actually has a different meaning than a simple one in these passages. In Gen. 1:5, “day” is the word that has “parts” to it (i.e., “evening” and “morning” make up the day), not echad. In Gen. 2:24, “flesh” acts as the collective noun (what the man and the woman as comprise together). [12] The key factor in all such passages – a factor missing from Deut. 6:4 – is that two or more “parts” are mentioned, such that the reader can immediately discern that there is some kind of “coming together” of the people or things mentioned, usually for just one purpose or goal. Echad, in fact, must maintain its meaning of “just one” for these expressions to convey their intended sense.

To make our point clear: Deut. 6:4 does not say, “YHVH our God, though three (or two or whatever plural number you like), is one.” There is no hint of “coming together” here. The verse says that YHVH our God is plainly, simply, one.

Once again, scholarship is in agreement. The Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Lexicon, the standard Hebrew lexicon of the Bible used in seminaries, list eight ways echad is used – e.g. meaning “each/every,” or “a certain,” or “only,” etc. – but there is no mention or hint in the entire echad article that echad ever means any kind of compound unity. [13]

And the “echad” article in the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament also nowhere teaches that echad implies a compound unity. It says that Deuteronomy 6:4 is essentially saying that YHVH is the one and only God for Israel (Vol. I p. 196).

Yachid, on the other hand, is a very rarely used word in the Tanakh, and it is employed in a special sense when it is used. It is found a grand total of 12 times in the entire Tanakh, three of those times in the same passage (Gen. 22:2, referring to Isaac as Abraham’s “only” son), so virtually any argument based on its absence from a Bible text is necessarily weak. Its meaning is restricted to a unique, priceless possession, whether a person or thing (Isaac in Gen. 22:2, 12, 16; one’s soul – lit. “only one” – in Ps. 22:20(21), 35:17); or to solitary, desolate, isolated or lonely people (Ps. 25:16, 68:6(7)). There is a “neediness” seen in all that yachid applies to in the Tanakh. YHWH our God is not dependent on anyone. Based on Biblical usage, therefore, it would be entirely inappropriate to use yachid as an adjective for God for any reason.


Conclusion

In conclusion, neither the word Elohim nor the word echad supports the notion of a plurality in God. The plural form Elohim when used of God does not have to mean a plural entity. In Hebrew, plural forms can be singular in meaning. this is sometimes referred to as a plural of majesty or plural of rank. The very term elohim is used of single, foreign gods and of the Messiah. But YHVH is, in fact, always referred to by grammatically singular forms and used with verbs in the singular (even when the plural form Elohim is the subject). Finally, the Greek Old Testament, sometimes quoted in the New Testament, always translates the term for God – whether the Hebrew word is singular or plural – in the singular Greek form.

Echad, rather than being any kind of support for a plural God, teaches the opposite. It means “one” and “only one.” God is one.

Final Word

It seems clear that the sole reason for these arguments attempting to teach a plural God from the Tanakh is a desire among many Christians and Christian originated Messianics to find Tanakh (irreverently called the Old Testament) substantiation for the concept of the Trinity or some other form of plural God. In other words, they force the square peg of their bias into the round hole of truth. They twist and distort the Hebrew language and the bulk of Scripture to “prove” what is actually not present and that is, indeed, actually proven wrong if the language and passages are properly understood.

But of course, that is no way to proceed in a Bible study.

We must accept the definitions which the words reveal about themselves and how they are used in the Bible text, not what we would like them to mean.

May God help us to accept what the Scripture has to say about who the true God is. “YHVH our God is one single Person” (cp. Paul in Gal. 3:20: “God is only One Person,” Amplified Version).
Referenced Notes from the Study:

[1] Some Christians believe that God consists of the Father and Son only, and that the Holy Spirit is essentially God’s active power, not a third Person.

[2] E.g., Gen. 23:1: Sarah’s “life”

[3] E.g., Gen. 43:31: Joseph’s “face”

[4] This is another word, like Elohim, which is a title denoting someone superior in rank. See “plurality of majesty” discussion below.

[5] The fact that Ps. 45:6(7) is viewed as messianic does not change the point: The Messiah is just one individual and yet is given the title of the plural (in form) Elohim. Some will use this verse, taken out of context, as “proof” that Yeshua Messiah is God because the term elohim (god) is applied to him. However, elohim can also mean rulers, judges, divine ones, angels, gods, god, goddess, godlike one, etc. There is also a legitimate question regarding the verse’s correct translation. The JPS Tanakh renders the verse as:

Psalm 45:7
7 Your divine throne is everlasting; your royal scepter is a scepter of equity.

The Stone Edition of the Tanakh renders it as:

Psalm 45:7
7 Your throne is from God, it is forever and ever, [for] the scepter of fairness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Nevertheless, as with virtually all verses that are incorrectly used as “proof” of Yeshua’s deity, when the context is considered, it is proven that even if elohim is applied to Messiah in verse 6 (7 in JPS and Stone editions), he is still not “God.” The very next verse shows this.

Psalm 45:7
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

Therefore, since God has anointed the one spoken of in verse 6, the one in verse 6 is obviously NOT God, but is god (little g), godlike, or a ruler, all of which perfectly describe the MAN, Yeshua the Messiah. Common sense dictates the one anointing and one being anointed are not the same entity.

[6] Two rather emphatic examples: 1 Kings 18:39 and 2 Sam. 7:28. The relevant part of the former reads, “YHVH, He is God [Elohim]; YHVH, He is God.” The key portion of the latter reads, very literally, “Lord [adonay] YHVH, You [sing], He, [is] the God [Elohim].”

[7] God is translated from El in the following passages: Gen. 17:1, Ex. 34:6, Josh. 3:10, Isa. 5:16 and Ps. 29:3. From Eloah: Deut. 32:15, Neh. 9:17, Job 4:9 (used more often than Elohim in Job) and Ps. 114:7.

[8] E.g., Dan. 2:28, Ezra 5:2.

[9] Gen. 1:26 says, “Let us make…” where God is perhaps either referring to Himself in the plural (possibly another form of plural of majesty), or is condescending to His heavenly host (i.e., someone besides Elohim, reflecting the normal concept of any first person plural), bringing them into the creative act. “Make,” of course, is plural in its Hebrew form. In the next verse, where Elohim actually performs the action, the verb for “made” is back to its singular form.

[10] The Hebrew word order may be relevant here as well. In Hebrew prose, the usual word order is that the verb precedes the noun. In Gen. 1:1, therefore, before the Hebrew reader even gets to the word Elohim, he or she reads “bara” (“created”), the third person masculine singular form, immediately telling him or her that the acting subject is singular in reality.

[11] See Heb. 1:6 for example, where a version of the LXX of Deut. 32:43 is quoted. The passage is quite different from the Hebrew text we now have and use.

[12] There wouldn’t be much point in saying, “The two shall be two fleshes.” The unity intended is obviously that of purpose and mind. And “one” here still means just one.

[13] Interestingly, there are five instances where echad is used in the plural (echadim):Gen. 27:44, 29:20; Ezek. 37:17; and Dan. 11:20. Echadim is usually translated “few”, but “one” may be the best translation in Gen. 11:1 and Ezek. 37:17 (so that they may become “one” in your hand). In those passages, echadim is used with plural nouns, and perhaps here has the sense of a compound. All the more remarkable, then, that Deut. 6:4 – which has the plural form Elohim – has echad in its singular form. This may be yet another indicator that Deut. 6:4 quite strongly emphasizes the simple oneness of God.
Spoiler


Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Eloheem[PLURAL] is one[SINGULAR] Jehovah.

You do not believe your own Tanach rejecting your Suffering Servant.

Where is the altar where you offer your lamb to cover your sin?

Who is your high priest that your lamb can be approved for sacrificing?

Where is your Temple where you must go three times a year?

You are a very religious man but very UNsaved exactly as the ones who demanded that Jesus be crucified because He did not fit their idea of God's Savior.
 
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lifeisgood

New member
You do not want to let go of the trinity doctrine. I understand that. I automatically believed the trinity doctrine, BECAUSE they got something right THAT MANY DID NOT GET RIGHT. The many say Jesus is not God, but only a Son, and they only understand that as an earthly son. However, 'ONE' MEANS---'THE SAME', and I want to prove to you---WITH SCRIPTURE THAT JESUS IS THE SAME AS GOD THE FATHER.

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Eloheem[PLURAL] is one[SINGULAR] Jehovah.
 

God's Truth

New member
It's a goofy term that pinheads use. I speak the Truth. Tha's all that matters.


LOL! And all THAT post means is that you are ignorant of the Scriptures AND the Catechism. You'd better get a new screen name Francis.

Isaiah 8:20 If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
 

beameup

New member
Nope, he is not.

Who is the Mother of Harlots?

From a Jewish perspective, it would be those who stayed in Babylon, rather than return to Israel, following the Babylonian Captivity. In Babylon, they learned enterprise and capitalism, which has become their "God" ever since. Revelation is fully "Jewish" in nature and does not concern the "Church" [Body of Christ].
 

God's Truth

New member
Sister,

You are correct, had I quoted the verse about the way, the truth and the life, it would have been "Life"

I was referencing that verse and

John 1 simultaneously.

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 All things were created through Him,
and apart from Him not one thing was created
that has been created.
4 Life was in Him,
and that life was the light of men.
5 That light shines in the darkness,
yet the darkness did not overcome it.

----------
The rest of my words were to speak that mankind divides under the assertion that Jesus was God, was not, or was partially God.
--------------

I was also referring to 1 John 2:22

Who is the liar, if not the one who denies that Jesus is the Messiah? This one is the antichrist: the one who denies the Father and the Son.

--------

I was then pointing out that the divisions amongst men are Trinity, Oness, Arian and a type of semi Arian.

Trinity and Oness alike are not evil as they acknowledge that Jesus was of the Father and God.

Arians are afraid of calling Jesus God, because they believe that would be putting an Idle before God.

Semi Arians (other titles used) reduce Jesus to God with Sinful flesh and soul that was limited. They assert that the Holy Spirit is essentially the Father and Jesus was able to be perfect in Obedience by fleshly toil.

The Trinitarians had the Arians killed in the early years following Jesus.

Others converted to Islam as they shared the idea that Jesus wasn't God and agreed with monotheistic laws and religious observance.

I apologize for thinking you were Oness.

I should have asked you.

I know you believe in the 3 expressions of God, so I really stopped asking after that had been established.



Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

So what exactly do you believe about Jesus?
 

jzeidler

New member
Jesus did not come to give his life for many or for a few because no one can do that for another. Only the one that sins shall die. (Jeremiah 31:30; Ezekiel 18:20) Jesus lost his life in the Calvary because of a political act of insurrection caused by his own disciples who were acclaiming him king of the Jews in Jerusalem, a Roman province at the time. His own disciples, imagine! And today Christians accuse the Jews in general for having "forced" Pilate to crucify Jesus. A slander without comparison.

I would like your sources showing that Jesus spoke against Rome and broke Roman law. I would also like to see your sources where Jesus claimed that he would fight against Rome as king of the Jews.
 

God's Truth

New member
LOL! That stupidity is what you call speaking in Scriptures?

God's nature is Divine, not human.
The Father gave the Son His Divine nature.
Jesus' mother, who is human, gave her son his human nature.

SO: Jesus is fully God (Divine) and fully man (human), two natures perfectly joined in the one person, Jesus Christ:

>> THE 'HYPOSTATIC' UNION

Mary didn't have a human baby all by herself.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Jesus is God = Simple, direct, to the point, and true.
>> http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-divinity-of-christ


Bs'd

Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".

But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.


Exodus 29:46 “They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.”

Numbers 15:41 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.”

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 “Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.”

Joshua 24:18 “We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.”

II Samuel 22:32 “For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?”

I Chronicles 16:14 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth”

II Chronicles 13:10 “As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him”

Psalm 31:14 “But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.”

Psalm 89:6 “For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?”

Psalm 91:2 “I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

Psalm 100:3 “Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.”

Psalm 105:7 “He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;”

Psalm 118:27 “Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.”

Psalm 140:6 “O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God”

Isaiah 25:1 “O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.”

Isaiah 41:13 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;”

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;”

Isaiah 51:15 “For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name”

Jeremiah 3:22-23 “Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God”

Jeremiah 10:10 “But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;”

Jeremiah 31:18 “Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.”

Habakkuk 1:12 “O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.”




And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?



Deuteronomy 4:35 “You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4:39 “Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

II Samuel 7:22 “How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

I Kings 8:60 “so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.”

I Chronicles 17:20 “There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.”

II Chronicles 6:14 “O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.”

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

Isaiah 45:21-23 “You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 45:5-6 “I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 “Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”



Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
 

Elia

Well-known member
John 5:39English Standard Version (ESV)

39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

Bs"d

No they don't. They bear witness that he didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies, and that he therefore was not the messiah:

Who and what is the messiah? Let us check according to the Holy Hebrew scriptures what the messiah is supposed to do. .......

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.

Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."

They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.

In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.

.

Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.


"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
 

Elia

Well-known member
I know I can believe what I want, and you are not my judge.



The trinity doctrine is false, BUT THERE ARE THREE.

Bs"d

If you believe in three gods then you are a polytheist and idol worshipper.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
 

Elia

Well-known member
LOL! That stupidity is what you call speaking in Scriptures?

God's nature is Divine, not human.
The Father gave the Son His Divine nature.
Jesus' mother, who is human, gave her son his human nature.

SO: Jesus is fully God (Divine) and fully man (human), two natures perfectly joined in the one person, Jesus Christ:

>> THE 'HYPOSTATIC' UNION

Bs"d

A "God the Father" and a "god the son" that is TWO (2) gods, and that is polytheism, and that is idolatry.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
 

Elia

Well-known member
[/SPOILER]

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Eloheem[PLURAL]

Bs"d

Elohiem can be singular and plural.

In Deut 6:4 it is singular, because God says so:


שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד


Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is
ONE.​

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

The Jews until this day fulfill this commandment. Every morning they put upon their arm and upon their forehead their phylacteries, (prayer belts) that consist of black straps with black leather cubes, that contain parchment upon which is written this Biblical text that says that God is one. Upon the doorposts of the houses of the religious Jews there are small boxes or containers that also contain parchment upon which is written that God is one. During the morning and evening prayers the above text is recited which says that God is one.

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no Christ, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPPER.
 

Elia

Well-known member
[/SPOILER]

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Eloheem[PLURAL] is one[SINGULAR] Jehovah.

You do not believe your own Tanach rejecting your Suffering Servant.

Bs"d

Nonsense, how can I reject Israel??

Where is the altar where you offer your lamb to cover your sin?

Destroyed in 70, but it will be rebuild.

Who is your high priest that your lamb can be approved for sacrificing?

We don't have one at the moment, but soon again.

Where is your Temple where you must go three times a year?

Destroyed in 70, but will rebuild again, this time an everlasting Temple.

You are a very religious man but very UNsaved exactly as the ones who demanded that Jesus be crucified because He did not fit their idea of God's Savior.

I don't need a man to save me, God is my savior:

My Savior is Y-H-W-H:

Isaiah 43: 3: "For I am Y-H-W-H thy God, the Holy one of Israel, thy saviour."

Isaiah 43:10-11: "Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me, even I, I am Y-H-W-H, and beside Me there is no saviour."

Isaiah 45:21-22: "... I Y-H-W-H, and there is no God else beside Me, a just God and a saviour, there is no saviour beside Me. Look unto Me and be you saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God and there is none else."

Hosea 13: 4: "Yet I am Y-H-W-H thy God, and thou shall know no God but Me, for there is no saviour beside Me."

"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!”

Joshua 24:14-15
 

marhig

Well-known member
That doesn't mean you repented of the false teachings you received. It doesn't mean either that you were careful not to fall into false teachings after you were saved.



Those who are saved have the mind of Christ. What is the mind of Christ? The mind of Christ is an obedient mind.

1 Corinthians 2:16 for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

You have some false believe, and the one of the topic of this thread is important, for your beliefs would have that God the Father wanted us to bow to a mere man, and worship a mere man.

False teachings?

I don't know how much clearer you need it, I'm quoting from the Bible, which clearly says that God is the God of Jesus. And you say it's a false teaching.

Tell you what, you show me "God the son" in the Bible

Show me the word trinity or triune God in the Bible.

If you can't show me those words, then don't tell me to believe them, because they are a false teaching!

I've showed you clearly why I believe that Jesus isn't God verse after verse after verse, including Jesus himself calling "the only true God" and "my god"

So...


Jesus called God "the only true God" why?

He called him "my god", why?

It says in the Bible that Jesus is under subjection to God, if he is God. Why is he under subjection to God?

How come he, or anyone else in the whole Bible does not say, "God the son"? Only the son of God?

Why do the desciples call God "the God of our lord Jesus Christ"?

Why didn't Jesus just forgive those who crucified him seeing as he's s God? Why did he have ask the father?

It says that God highly exhalted Jesus and has put Jesus at his own right hand, why? Why didn't Jesus just straight up there with God of he is God? Why was Jesus highly exhalted, if he's God already?

Why it say that God anointed Jesus and with power, if Jesus is God?

I can go on and on

But you can't get any clearer than this

John 17

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

And

John 20

I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
 
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Elia

Well-known member
Only God can be the Messiah.

Bs"d

Wrong. The messiah is going to be a human being, born from the normal union of man and woman, not born from a virgin. He is going to be fully 100% human, and not God, not the son of God, not divine, but human.

If this were not so, then God would be a liar in the NT.

Not God is the liar, but the NT.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
 

marhig

Well-known member
That doesn't mean you repented of the false teachings you received. It doesn't mean either that you were careful not to fall into false teachings after you were saved.



Those who are saved have the mind of Christ. What is the mind of Christ? The mind of Christ is an obedient mind.

1 Corinthians 2:16 for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

You have some false believe, and the one of the topic of this thread is important, for your beliefs would have that God the Father wanted us to bow to a mere man, and worship a mere man.

Yes the mind of Christ is an obedient mind, so listen to him when he says there is only one true God John 17:3

1 Corinthians 2:16 for, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

That's true, if we don't have the mind of Christ, we won't know God! We have to believe and have faith and love God and obey him as he did before God will look at us. It says we we are filthy rags to God. God wants to see his son in us, he wants us to be willing to be a living sacrifice, just as his son was, and to be ready to lay down our lives and do his will.

This is having the mind of Christ!
 
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