PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I know he can be frustrating, but not nearly so much as many others. And I think he’s most often very rational and consistent, without being a troll.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
I know he can be frustrating, but not nearly so much as many others. And I think he’s most often very rational and consistent, without being a troll.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
This requires a basic (though maybe extensive) outline of what good and evil (tov and ra’a in Hebrew) are, and of what sin (hamartia in Greek) is in all it’s grammatical forms. Thus it would also include a biblical Theodicy to explain Ponerology (Evil-ology).
I’m limited for time, but I’ll address these in the next few days.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
I’ll address all these forms of theos in the next couple of days, too.
just curious - did you post here when Zippy was active? IIRC, his discussions were on a similarly high level
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I don’t recall for sure, but I don’t think so.
I’ve been a TOL member for 6 years, but have taken several long breaks from forum life.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
no, zippy left long before that
he may have been a seminary student - often he and traditio (trad was in a PhD program in philosophy i believe) would get into high level philosophical discussions and just tear through them while I struggled to make sense out of what the heck they were on about
then zippy left and trad's online persona became obsessed with racism and white nationalist ideas
he's currently banned, not sure whether just long term or of the permanent kind
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Interesting fellers, no doubt. LOL
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
You talked about not wishing annihilation on your own worst enemy. Yet you think that your own understanding of "hell/the lake of fire" is somehow less cruel as you argued earlier? That people are subjected to utter, unending loneliness with no comforts, companionship or respite? Do you want to explain how that makes any sort of sense?
How on earth is having a hope that a loving God can restore all of His own creation "spitting" in His face? How is it minimizing anything? If anything it maximises things.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.
That’s a decent general summary. Thanks for distilling that in your own terms.
No, you’re not.
Well, I've been allowed back into the thread courtesy of Sherman so to kinda pick up. I'm not seeing the point of there being some purification process that doesn't actually purify but essentially keeps people in some unending "purgatory" where they're just in "limbo" for want of a better word. Essentially, what's the point? Was this the design plan from the beginning? We're all just human beings. Fallible flesh and blood. In other circumstances you could have had an entirely different background with a completely different belief system as could I or anyone else. Is the eternal fate of people incumbent on one short life on a physical plain? No matter what?
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
I know he can be frustrating, but not nearly so much as many others. And I think he’s most often very rational and consistent, without being a troll.
Frustrating?
Moi?
:noid:
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I was going to ask for that, so I’m glad you’re back.
But surely you can recognize that you - nor anyone else - don’t necessarily have to see the point of this being the truth. And I’d hope you can see how it would smack of human entitlement, etc.
Also, you’re not understanding the scope of the subtleties between immediate creation and mediate creation. The latter as the life-from-life means of procreation has been tainted and seized upon (by the serpent and the host of hell) to bring forth those whom God has not foreknown into an existence that is only ontologically compatible with this lapsed cosmos (and this is NOT Calvinism).
The point is the sovereignty of God and His incommunicable and communicable attributes as the prevailing authority according to righeousness and holiness. Your questions actually come from a presumed superiority to God and His thoughts and ways (which are not ours).
Hell hath enlarged itself without measure for all them that go in thereat. This is difficult to extoll without addressing Prolepsis, which would take quite an effort; and if you’re not a Believer (which I think you’ve stated) it would be futile, for it requires an access-based knowledge that you simply cannot have as one who is unregenerated.
In short, Prolepsis is the already/not yet of time versus timelessness relative to all occurences in the current temporal lapsed cosmos.
The redeemed are not. They have their human hypostasis underlied by the hypostasis of Christ, whereby they are partaking of the divine nature and being vicariously and functionally divinized (though never innately becoming ontologically divine as intrinsic state of being).
But this is a testimony to God’s grace moving in so many ways at so many times upon so many hearts. And there isn’t a multi-verse type of infinite random possibilities for such things. The multi-versity of contingent plausibilities and potential possibilities is within the eternal and immutable mind of God as noumenon. Those aren’t subject to random manifestation as phenomena. (All of God’s thought is not expressed in the divine creative utterance, so all alleged possibilities are not possiblities at all. Only that which God has foreknown.)
Again, this goes to understanding Prolepsis. I teach an entire 40-hour set of sessions on this alone, and it usually takes 2 or more times through to begin to understand. And a huge part of that is because of having to deprogram modern innovations and substitute concepts that don’t conform to biblical lexicography.
(Much of this is because of two areas of lack in the English language and its effects on human cognitive reasoning. I have to unravel all of that through the lexical applications in scripture that few can extract and implement.)
Yes, but it’s not really what you think that means. What you don’t realize is that all humans are not “real” hypostases (“persons”). No one is until translated into Christ by THE faith. Those who are currently in hades in their present lives (yes, NOW) and physically die without Christ are NEVER “real” hypostases (“persons”).
The lake of fire is not at all what you think, even after my delineations and your basically accurate summary. You don’t understand the depth, breadth, and height of the hows and whys from spiritually intuitive knowledge (oida).
Those cast into the lake of fire were never to have existed, but existed as hypostases that were never “real”. (I don’t mean they were projections or some weird something; but that they were never intended to have been a part of creation.)
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PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Only because, in spite of your often surprising insights, you don’t have an intuitive spiritual knowledge (or at least not a developed one if you are a professing Believer, which I think you have said you are not).
I do very much appreciate your contributions, and the fact that you generally don’t depart from subject matter to play ad hominem games and the like. Many of your questions and observations are valuable in discussions regarding Christian apologetics. So thank you.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
So how is it that your profile shows you joined TOL 2.5 years after I did? Were you another screen name back in the good ol’ days or sumptink? LOL
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
More than I can remember. I think i first discovered the site in 2003, joined shortly after.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
...continued on my lappy:
name changes reflected in my current name
early and longest and most abrasive: "koban"
followed by an attempt to reinvent my online persona: "some other dude" (sod)
came back as "resurrected"
then an amalgam of my previous names: "resodko" (my favorite)
then a few years ago, i just flipped it around to form "ok doser"
each break was necessitated by my need to be absent from online activity - mostly around periods when I was back in school - i would burn my old account, then when my circumstances changed, create a new one
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Ok, I remember “resurrected”, though not copiously enough to recall much in the way of doctrinal positions, etc.
And wow, I didn’t realize TOL went back to 2003 or earlier. I wasn’t even on internet forums of any kind until ‘05 or ‘06. So you’ve been on TOL - even if intermittently - for an entire decade longer than I have. Interesting.
way 2 go
Well-known member
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
please explain .
All who have been conceived in this lapsed cosmos have been procreated by the means God delegated as mediate creation. God is not perpetually creatING persons and things. He spoke once at the divine utterance and is a life-from-life seed God. All mediate creation has been post-lapse. All procreation has taken place after the fall of man into spiritual death and sin.
In God’s eternal pre-creational noumenon, He did not foreknow anyone (within the bounds of chronological time as the earth age/s) who does not ultimately communion with Him by being hypostatically translated into Christ and partaking of the divine nature of God from time into timelessness. Those who have/do are communing with God “before” He spoke to create (but there is no “before” for God, only for those who are created and are in the lapsed cosmos’ form of time).
Those who aren’t hypostatically joined to Christ do not have a “real” hypostasis. Their underlying reality of ontological existence is only in accordance and compatibility with the resulting state of being of the cosmos relative to the alternate existence of the post-lapse creation. The quality of that existence is NOT the reality of God’s Logos, who is the instrument of the divine utterance to create.
So the reality of the original divinely ordered creation and the ultimate new heavens and new earth are “real”, while the lapsed condition of the cosmos is not. So all the hypostases in the lapsed cosmos must be translated into Christ and resurrected from both forms of death (spiritual and physical) to have any true reality of existence.
All of this is what the Quantum fields are attempting to say and demonstrate, but their failure is in thinking that tangible reality is superordinate to intangible reality (an Artistotelian premise as opposed to a Platonist premise - both being wrong). Just because something has a form of tangible reality, it doesn’t mean they have a “real” functional existence in the sense of divine order for creation.
Those who are conceived in spiritual death and sin (the state of being) are brought forth into a kind of existence that isn’t reality according to divine decree and order. So all who physically die in that state of being are those who were never foreknown, and thus never predestinated to be conformed to the image of God’s Son.
These are those who were not noumenon in God’s eternal immutable mind to bring forth into phenomenality of existence. And this would require a prolonged excursis into phaino/phenomena and nous/noumena. It is not what is would seem to be on the surface of just hearing this summary.
(Calvin TRIED to say these things, but only accomplished presenting Linear Determinism with no distinctions between Aeviternity and Eternity relative to Temporality.)
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
gonna chew on this a while, while i try to sort out OBD2 codes and SRS reset procedures for my car
it occurs to me that this is similar to the position held by those who believe that our current stay on earth is purgatory/hell
it also occurs to me to wonder what ultimate purpose is served by having any involvement with non-believers - they can't and won't benefit from us - what benefit do we see?