ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
my interest here has always been mainly in the realm of politics - not sure which persona res was - kinder and gentler, i hope
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
my interest here has always been mainly in the realm of politics - not sure which persona res was - kinder and gentler, i hope
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Yikes. Hope you get that sorted.
Well... I’m not sure to whom you’re referring, but hades IS both in this life and the afterlife. It’s not a dichotomy, and hades is not primarily a spatial location. All these things are a state of being. An ontology of existence that either has authentic reality according to divine decree and divine order, or it does not.
We don’t know who is and isn’t a Believer. Wheat and tares. Judge nothing before the day.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Res was kind of a humorous persona. Always looking at the lighter side of everything everyone said. That’s what I remember, though kinda vaguely. It’s been a minute. LOL
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
One key thing to know and remember (which usually is NOT the focus of modernists and English speakers) is that God’s focus for redemption is Cosmological, not merely Anthropological.
God is redeeming and resurrecting the entire lapsed cosmos, of which those who are in the Imago Dei are the centerpiece. So it’s not about individuals first. It’s about the whole creation, including those individuals whom God has eternally foreknown to be conformed to the image of His Son for all everlasting.
None of this is focused primarily upon individuals; though it all most certainly very personally applies to all individuals in whatever manner.
God is redeeming and resurrecting the entire lapsed cosmos, of which those who are in the Imago Dei are the centerpiece. So it’s not about individuals first. It’s about the whole creation, including those individuals whom God has eternally foreknown to be conformed to the image of His Son for all everlasting.
None of this is focused primarily upon individuals; though it all most certainly very personally applies to all individuals in whatever manner.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Oh, please.
the dead have no consciousness, either, you are alive or you are dead.
Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Ecclesiastes 9:
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Why not read some scripture that defines death?
Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Ecclesiastes 9:
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Now go and reevaluate your conclusions in light of those truths
Arguments from repetition don't make you correct.
way 2 go
Well-known member
you are right lets look at what God said
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
all talks about here on earth
Ecc 9:3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun,
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Oh, please, yourself. You have no idea what the Hebrew and Greek words for death mean, and there are more than one in each language. Your English concepts have come from your modern cult and its shallow perusal of scripture to make it mean what they want it to mean.
Greetings PneumaPsucheSoma,
Genesis 3:19 (KJV): In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
This teaches that Adam was to return to the dust. It does not mention that he has an immortal soul or immaterial conscious spirit that will live for ever.
A passage that draws upon this language of returning to the dust is the following:
Daniel 12:2–3 (KJV): 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
So here is another definition of death and some additional detail is added. When Jesus returns he will awake many that sleep in the dust of the earth, and then some of these will be granted everlasting life. The figure of sleep is used, but this does not imply latent consciousness as when dreaming, as they are asleep in the dust of the earth.
Jesus helps to explain this figure of “sleep” in the following:
John 11:11–14 (KJV): 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Kind regards
Trevor
I was interested in your interaction with “oatmeal”. Firstly could you define what the word “death” means here in Psalm 6:5, because without looking at a Hebrew Word definition from the few resources that I have, this passage seems to define death as the cessation of consciousness:
From my own perspective I would also quote the following as defining death as a return to the dust:
Genesis 3:19 (KJV): In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
This teaches that Adam was to return to the dust. It does not mention that he has an immortal soul or immaterial conscious spirit that will live for ever.
A passage that draws upon this language of returning to the dust is the following:
Daniel 12:2–3 (KJV): 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
So here is another definition of death and some additional detail is added. When Jesus returns he will awake many that sleep in the dust of the earth, and then some of these will be granted everlasting life. The figure of sleep is used, but this does not imply latent consciousness as when dreaming, as they are asleep in the dust of the earth.
Jesus helps to explain this figure of “sleep” in the following:
John 11:11–14 (KJV): 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Kind regards
Trevor
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I have one issue with answering you. It would seem from all interaction so far that you have no intention of being persuaded to abandon your erroneous doctrinal views, and particularly of death, of the afterlife, and of ECT. So if I took the time to provide the extensive lexical meanings of the words, would you recant your false positions and leave your cult?
I think we know the answer to that question, so why would I spend the time answering your query?
And just so you know, it is quite an undertaking just to explain the ancient Hebrew mindset to modern English speakers, and such would be necessary to deal with these Hebrew words and their complete meaning.
So I doubt it’s worth my time to post it all when you’ll just ignore it and maintain your false doctrinal views. This isn’t my first rodeo, and I’m not really all that interested in pouring out truth that will just garner a “nuh-uh” or other similar dismissal by someone who isn’t a linguist. It gets very old, particularly when all I’m trying to do is serve the Body in this specific manner.
And you wouldn’t be able to understand the reason for that according to the ancient Hebrew mindset, because you have no idea how high-context the language is and what the cultural perspectives were related TO language.
And some to shame and everlasting contempt. Hmmmmmm....... And right here in your own provided proof-text.
I can’t even begin to tell you how important understanding ancient epistemics is. I can assure you that you have NO idea how to address the Hebrew language and the manner in which they preceived all things. And without knowing that, you can have no idea what words mean.
Hebrew words are “nested” in a very layered and intricate manner. One word means many things simultaneously in a specifc way. Modern language resources are mostly very meager in addressing this, and most will just approach it as they approach their own native first language. Nothing could be more faulty.
But again, this is really all just a waste of time. You’re not going to budge on your heterodoxy and heresy, which actually makes the questions in your post dishonest. I’m not at all convinced you’re looking for any answers, but are here only to represent your views of doctrine regardless.
Greetings again PneumaPsucheSoma,
Kind regards
Trevor
You have used many words and a claim that the answer is based on extensive scholarship that possibly only you have the ability to explain. If you would like to explain your view of "death" in Psalm 6:5 please proceed, but you may like avoid this as you did with your response to me and the response to "oatmeal".
Kind regards
Trevor
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Your passive-aggressive “taunt” is duly noted, but I avoid nothing except wasting valuable time.
You don’t understand the ancient Hebrew mindset. Very basically, they didn’t even think in terms of time as we know it. They perceived seasons with the past in front of them and extending out to a horizon, and the future was behind them as they were backing into it as the total unknown. Hebrew has no words for past, present, or future; and it also has no terms for everlasting or forever in the sense that we think of them.
And this is only a basic beginning hint of how you and other moderns have NO clue how to apply terms even if you know what they mean. And modern language resources are accurate only in the most very basic sense, and are written for moderns who have English patterns of thought (which isn’t saying much).
But the funny thing is how self-assured you are that the Hebrew language is so accessible to you in translation without having ANY understanding of it for what it actually is. Yours is the typical text-to-reader disposition, with no reader-to-text application whatsover. And you don’t even know what that means.
But then you want to vaguely taunt me as a neophyte because I don’t want to engage in the futility of trying to teach you hundreds of hours of truth that you’ll just dismiss in total ignorance.
So here’s a tiny taste, little one:
The Hebrew word is mavet. It comes from the ancient pictographic agglutination of the symbol for water and the symbol for the end or mark; and its most literal meaning in English would be “the end of the flow of water”, or “the end of the river that is a man’s life”.
This relates to one of the two aspects of the Greek word “Rhema”, which is “to flow” and “to speak”.
So this word doesn’t mean anything close to what you think it means in your modern misconceptions from corrupted English epistemics.
And what you want to smugly and subtly refer to as “avoidance” is me merely knowing you won’t be able to begin to understand something that has so much background behind it that is missing for you AND replaced with your modern substitutes.
And if these seems terse, then it’s because I’m responding to your smug slightly-veiled condescension that is absurd.
Death in Hebrew is referring to man coming to the end of his physical life according to the flow of the very Word of God that created him. To think that it is nihilistic is to ignore that the eternal and uncreated Logos had not been manifest in the flesh yet. HE is the Living Water and the finality of the flow, and all who had faith unto His coming from the ancient days are in Him as the flow. Mavet speaks nothing of what you think one way or the other. It wasn’t even a consideration for ancient minds.
And I’ve already wasted too much time here, as you have begun to prove you are simply a scoffer.
Greetings again PneumaPsucheSoma,
Psalm 6:5 (KJV): For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Kind regards
Trevor
Despite your complicated response, I suggest that the Hebrews did know what death is and the verse under consideration has a poetical parallelism “in death” and “in the grave”. A body when placed in the grave returns to dust Genesis 3:19, Daniel 12:2-3.
Psalm 6:5 (KJV): For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Kind regards
Trevor
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Correct. They did. You don’t.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Fact is: there are far more Scriptures supporting the facts of Eternal Conscious Torment than there are mis-interpreted and out-of-context Scriptures twisted to support the universalism heresy or even the slightly less heretical annihilationism heresy. Okay, maybe that's a little facetious: they're both heresy and heresy has no place in Christianity.
Greetings PneumaPsucheSoma,
Psalm 6:5 (KJV): For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
It appears that modern Lutherism does not fully follow the teaching of Martin Luther. I was interested in reading a 1951 Magazine and it gives a report of an interview with Professor R. Prenter, of the Aarhus (Denmark) University, who was recommended to the writer as one of the greatest authorities on Luther.
The writer states: “This professor I found to be most helpful when I spent the best part of two hours with him. Although he found it a little difficult to say in an unqualified way that Luther did not believe the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul, there was no question in his mind that Luther did believe there was no conscious existence between death and resurrection, and that the Romish idea of Purgatory was a mere superstition.”
The writer then says that the Professor endorsed the following notes of the conversation which were submitted to him for comment: “There seems to be a certain amount of ambiguity in Luther’s works on the subject of Immortality. Luther regarded man as being immortal only in the sense that he was related to God. One has to understand this did not mean that Luther believed man to be in any way a conscious entity between death and resurrection. This condition was, to Luther, a state of sleep from which man would awake at the resurrection. The ‘sleep’ he applied to both body and soul. Both in unity make up the conscious man.”
Kind regards
Trevor
Another aspect of the poetic parallelism is the lack of consciousness expressed as “no remembrance of thee” and “who shall give thee thanks”.
Psalm 6:5 (KJV): For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
It appears that modern Lutherism does not fully follow the teaching of Martin Luther. I was interested in reading a 1951 Magazine and it gives a report of an interview with Professor R. Prenter, of the Aarhus (Denmark) University, who was recommended to the writer as one of the greatest authorities on Luther.
The writer states: “This professor I found to be most helpful when I spent the best part of two hours with him. Although he found it a little difficult to say in an unqualified way that Luther did not believe the doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul, there was no question in his mind that Luther did believe there was no conscious existence between death and resurrection, and that the Romish idea of Purgatory was a mere superstition.”
The writer then says that the Professor endorsed the following notes of the conversation which were submitted to him for comment: “There seems to be a certain amount of ambiguity in Luther’s works on the subject of Immortality. Luther regarded man as being immortal only in the sense that he was related to God. One has to understand this did not mean that Luther believed man to be in any way a conscious entity between death and resurrection. This condition was, to Luther, a state of sleep from which man would awake at the resurrection. The ‘sleep’ he applied to both body and soul. Both in unity make up the conscious man.”
Kind regards
Trevor
oatmeal
Well-known member
Well God repeats himself
You're not God.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Death has many forms.
When a plant dies. Soul does not die because plants do not have soul yet they do have some form of life as do bacteria etc because they grow and reproduce. We could call that growth life.
I Thes 5:23 until a person receives the gift of holy spirit from God who is the Holy Spirit they are only body and soul. The image of God is spirit. John 4:24. Adam and Eve were body and soul and spirit but because of their sin did not lose body and soul but the spirit. The image of God who is eternal and right and holy... They lost their direct connection with God and the goodness of God. They became subject to Satan. They died for the Devil has the power of death not God. Hebrew's 2:14.
Epjesians speaks of being dead in sin before we received salvation.
Like post Eden Adam and Eve we had no spirit only body and soul which is guarantied to die because there is no eternality in body and soul. Eternal life is spirit.
The story in Luke is a parable used by Jesus Christ to correct the error of his enemies. There is no immediate presence with God upon death.
If the dead are not literally dead than the word death had no meaning then neither does the word life. Then Jesus did not die for us nor was he raised thus our redemption and salvation would be a lie based on lies.
But the dead are dead and remain so until a raising from the dead to life