Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[oatmeal]

Dear Oatmeal: You were doing wonderful until those last two words.

There is no such animal as "eternal death"!

"He will swallow up death forever. The Lord GOD will wipe away the tears from every face and remove the disgrace of His people from the whole earth. For the LORD has spoken."

"For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: Death has been swallowed up in victory. Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

The Heavenly big gulp= death swallowed up in victory

"We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored."

Death is the absence of life, it is the antithesis of life.

Unless you have eternal life, the only other option is eternal death.

There is no middle ground.

If you think so, how about some scripture to back your viewpoint?

If death is not eternal then what is the big deal with Romans 6:23 and the gift of eternal life?

If you are right then it seems you are disparaging the gift of eternal life.

Are you?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Did God torture them endlessly?

No, he simply let them reap the consequences of their choices.

God plainly states that He is God and none else, that He created the heavens and the earth and that He is light and love and goodness, but those who reject that simply do not receive that, if they do not receive life from God, then the only other option is death

Thanks for reasserting our own position.

However, you still seem to be trying to once again assert, without evidence, that death is not separation from God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Ok, oh wise one, why don't you elaborate instead of skirting the issue?

So God has someone else sadistically torment God rejectors forever? Who might that be?

God isn't a sadist, nor does he make anyone else into a sadist.

It's no wonder you have so many problems understanding what is clearly written.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Ok, oh wise one, why don't you elaborate instead of skirting the issue?

So God has someone else sadistically torment God rejectors forever? Who might that be?

No need for me to repeat all my posts. Read my posts over the last few pages.

The torment is a state of being, not an action done TO them by anyone.

 

[oatmeal]

Thanks for reasserting our own position.

However, you still seem to be trying to once again assert, without evidence, that death is not separation from God.

What?

I cannot even imagine how you come to such a contradictory and unsubstantiated conclusion. You must have me mistake for someone else.



God is life, and He is the God of the living not the dead, hence a need for a resurrection from the dead for God to be the God of the living.

Death is an enemy because death is separation from God who is life and who gives life


Evidently, you need an education on what scripture does say.

Psalm 6:5

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6,10

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.



So far it very clear that there is no consciousness in death and without consciousness there is no consciousness of God whatsoever.


I Thessalonians 4:13-17

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



Note especially the following:

"the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The only manner we shall be with the Lord is for the dead to have risen and for the alive to meet him in the air.

There is no "ever be with the Lord" without those two events

 

[ok doser]

So God has someone else sadistically torment God rejectors forever?

:doh:

 

[JudgeRightly]

Death is an enemy because death is separation from God who is life and who gives life

Thank you for conceding the issue.

Death is indeed separation, not annihilation, not unconsciousness.

Evidently, you need an education on what scripture does say.

Psalm 6:5

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Poetry uses figurative language.

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6,10

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Written by then-backslidden Saul, well on his descent into madness. Which means taking what he says with a grain of salt.

So far it very clear that there is no consciousness in death and without consciousness there is no consciousness of God whatsoever.

What is clear is your lack of understanding of scripture, and your attempts to twist said scripture to fit your beliefs.

I Thessalonians 4:13-17

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Was the girl in Matthew 9:24 asleep or dead, Oatsy?

Note especially the following:

"the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Are you trying to say that that verse says that the dead are just unconscious?

Because it doesn't in the slightest...

The only manner we shall be with the Lord is for the dead to have risen and for the alive to meet him in the air.

There is no "ever be with the Lord" without those two events

:kookoo:

 

[clefty]

Funny how Clefty seems to have run off when I mentioned this...

Haha Funnier how highly you think of your posts that my life must revolve around them too...

I am separated from your posts but NOT dead to be sure...

Not that your are concerned...will respond when I have time

Carry on with your grand illusions though...as I see you are

 

[ok doser]

No need for me to repeat all my posts. Read my posts over the last few pages.

The torment is a state of being, not an action done TO them by anyone.

to return to our discussion from last night (and i'll have to be brief here) - it appears to me that the kindness artie has received from non-believers is (or can be) the true kindness which you were describing, the kindness that comes from God, but only if God was working through them

and of course, artie's perception of that quality is comprised by his own rejection of God

so artie isn't wrong in his perception of the quality of the kindness offered and received

 

[way 2 go]

God plainly states that He is God and none else, that He created the heavens and the earth and that He is light and love and goodness, but those who reject that simply do not receive that, if they do not receive life from God, then the only other option is death

yes , death .

How does God define death?

It is the opposite of life, it is the absence of life.

Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6

4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

If the dead are not dead, but alive then we language and words are irrelevant and useless for communication.

The dead are dead

The living are alive.

Hence the need for raising of the dead, for there to be resurrections, otherwise the dead would remain dead.

you must dig deeper or you will never get to the truth

Mat 8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; ...

 

[oatmeal]

No need for me to repeat all my posts. Read my posts over the last few pages.

The torment is a state of being, not an action done TO them by anyone.

So then you are saying that eternal life is granted to God rejecters as well?

After all, if people are to be tormented forever, then they must be alive forever to be tormented forever.

thus Romans 6:23 is not necessary to receive eternal life.

Torment is both a noun and a verb.

See Revelation 20:10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are , and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You assume the position of authority yet, ???

 

[ok doser]

So then you are saying that eternal life ....

you're stuck thinking that refers to only one kind of life

go back and re-read PPS's posts

see if this doesn't help: http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...lical-or-not&p=5331200&viewfull=1#post5331200

 

[oatmeal]

yes , death .


you must dig deeper or you will never get to the truth

Mat 8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; ...

If you read the verses I posted you would realize that the dead are incapable of any thought, or consciousness, let alone any action.

Thus the dead burying their dead is figurative, not literal.

KC Pillai explains it as let the city bury their dead.

Yet we can also look at it as "let the spiritually dead bury the spiritually dead" Why follow the spiritually dead when you can follow the lord Jesus Christ to life eternal?

Even so, with Ephesians 2:1 man of body and soul only is spiritually dead, thus when they receive the gift of pneuma hagion they receive spiritual life thus and then becoming the complete believing human of I Thessalonians 5:23

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; ...


You might want to take the time to read the context and understand that the first resurrection, the resurrection of the just is different than the second resurrection which is the resurrection of the unjust.

You might also want to consider God's uses of figures of speech.

The dead are dead until they are resurrected, they are resurrected to life, whether it be the first or second resurrection.

Those in the first resurrection, of the just, the second death shall have no power over them for they were resurrected to eternal life,

Whiles those unjust resurrected in the second resurrection were resurrected to live only to their second death.

God refers to those were dead but resurrected as the dead, for so they were.

Missing that great truth is like exalting the death of Jesus Christ over the truth that God raised him from the dead to die no more.

Most Christianity seems to be stewing in the death of Jesus Christ instead of looking to his victory over death when God raised him from the dead.

Yes, his death accomplished much, but his resurrection even more, for we now have a living lord and savior who is the head of the body, not a dead one incapable anything

 

[oatmeal]

you're stuck thinking that refers to only one kind of life

go back and re-read PPS's posts

see if this doesn't help: http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...lical-or-not&p=5331200&viewfull=1#post5331200

I, contrary to your opinion, am not stuck on anything.

Show me my error, I tire of your endless opinions, opinions that transgress the commandments and the word of God

 

[ok doser]

I, contrary to your opinion, am not stuck on anything.

Show me my error, I tire of your endless opinions, opinions that transgress the commandments and the word of God

nah - you didn't bother to follow the link and read PPS's post

do that first

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

to return to our discussion from last night (and i'll have to be brief here) - it appears to me that the kindness artie has received from non-believers is (or can be) the true kindness which you were describing, the kindness that comes from God, but only if God was working through them

and of course, artie's perception of that quality is comprised by his own rejection of God

so artie isn't wrong in his perception of the quality of the kindness offered and received

Ok, the point is that all action has a source; and it’s the quality of the source OF the action that is the issue.

Unbelivers cannot be the source of kindness, for chrestotes comes from a non-temporal source and is for aeviternal things. It does not mean God cannot move upon the hearts of whomever He chooses by His grace that is extended to all mankind in various ways beyond being salvific.

This means that all men are without excuse, for they have both directly and indirectly been recipients of God’s grace in many ways on many occasions, even from those who are not Believers.

So the thing administered by unbelievers (and by Believers if it is not of faith) is a “niceness” that God has chosen to underlie with His kindness to demonsrate the eternal and aeviternal in temporality.

Unbelievers cannot exhibit and demonstrate true kindness, but God can do so in and by and through anyone. So the focus should never be upon the human action/s, but the source OF the activity.

The fact that anything and anyone is not perpetually demonstrating the depths of the sin condition is God’s grace alone. There is always the shadowy remainder of the Imago Dei in man, for it can never be disanulled. Its dysfunctionalization is not a lack of its existence or presence, and thus the latency of it that I mentioned previously.

These are incredibly explicit subtleties, but in no way can unbelievers be considered to be the source of kindness in their niceness. They are still nescient (devoid of a changed condition of mind that is repentance, the noun) and cannot be kind in and of themselves. This is testament to God and His grace alone, not those through/by whom such is/are demonstrated.

Arthur Brain is attributing the quality of those actions to unbelievers, when that should be attributed to God alone whose very nature influenced the human natures of those individuals to do those things (and totally apart from any present or absent salvific faith on their part).

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

So then you are saying that eternal life is granted to God rejecters as well?

No. Aeviternity in the lake of fire, where death and hades are cast. This is an everlasting state of being, just as the semantics and grammar of scripture indicate.

After all, if people are to be tormented forever, then they must be alive forever to be tormented forever.

You don’t know what alive and dead mean. So you project those concepts upon the words as an English speaker.

thus Romans 6:23 is not necessary to receive eternal life.

Everlasting life is not what those in the lake of fire have. You don’t know what life is, either. You presume a simplistic singular meaning from a singular word. There are multiple words for life AND death.

Zoe (life) is the highest blessedness of the creature, being in constant communion with God. Those who are NOT alive in Christ do not have this life, even though they have durative everlasting existence in another state of being.

Torment is both a noun and a verb.

Of course. You just don’t know the applicational difference, nor the meaning of the word itself.

See Revelation 20:10

I’ve seen (eido and oida) it. You have not. You have merely casually seen (blepo) it.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are , and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And?

You assume the position of authority yet, ???

Yet I’m the one who knows the Hebrew and Greek texts, translational methods, and the Apostolic and Patristic historical doctrines according to all of that and more.

Your cult, on the other hand, has only existed for a short time in modernity; and it’s completely founded upon innovation/s that is/are heterodox and heretical, especially Christology.

 

[ok doser]

Ok, the point is that all action has a source; and it’s the quality of the source OF the action that is the issue.

Unbelivers cannot be the source of kindness, for chrestotes comes from a non-temporal source and is for aeviternal things. It does not mean God cannot move upon the hearts of whomever He chooses by His grace that is extended to all mankind in various ways beyond being salvific.

This means that all men are without excuse, for they have both directly and indirectly been recipients of God’s grace in many ways on many occasions, even from those who are not Believers.

So the thing administered by unbelievers (and by Believers if it is not of faith) is a “niceness” that God has chosen to underlie with His kindness to demonsrate the eternal and aeviternal in temporality.

Unbelievers cannot exhibit and demonstrate true kindness, but God can do so in and by and through anyone. So the focus should never be upon the human action/s, but the source OF the activity.

The fact that anything and anyone is not perpetually demonstrating the depths of the sin condition is God’s grace alone. There is always the shadowy remainder of the Imgao Dei in man, for it can never be disanulled. Its dysfunctionalization is not a lack of its existence or presence, and thus the latency of it that I mentioned previously.

These are incredibly explicit subtleties, but in no way can unbelievers be considered to be the source of kindness in their niceness. They are still nescient (devoid of a changed condition of mind that is repentance, the noun) and cannot be kind in and of themselves. This is testament to God and His grace alone, not those through/by whom such is/are demonstrated.

"in no way can unbelievers be considered to be the source of kindness in their niceness"

i understand that, and i also understand why those outside the body don't and can't

and so, there will be eternal ( ) misunderstanding with the likes of artie

which is why i don't usually bother delving this deeply into these matters

 

[ok doser]

.... they have durative everlasting existence in another state of being.

which is the sticking point for so many

I’ve seen (eido and oida) it. You have not. You have merely casually seen (blepo) it.

my mother would wash my mouth out with soap if she caught me talking like that

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

which is the sticking point for so many

Yeppers. And their rejections are based upon a rejection of the inspired text itself.

my mother would wash my mouth out with soap if she caught me talking like that

Well, it’s fruit flavored, if that would help.