Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[FineLinen]

...says the ignorant heretical neophyte promoting antichrist false doctrine.

Dear P.P.S.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Please do not hold my youth and inexperience against me.

My "ignorant neophyte antichrist false doctrine" of actually believing our God is the Saviour of all mankind, malista those who trust in Him, I gladly embrace with other remarkable individuals.

Adam1= polus made sinners>>>Last Adam= the polus made righteous.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I’m only “open” to that which the divinely inspired text says, confirmed by and through Apostolic and Patristic doctrine.

Universal Reconciliation is no more biblically possible than Annihilationism; so no, I’m not open to that heresy.

Plenty of the early church didn't think it was heretical so you're hardly an arbiter of what's possible.

 

[ok doser]

Plenty of the early church didn't think it was heretical so you're hardly an arbiter of what's possible.

you make this claim often - can you back it up or are you just blowing smoke?

be specific - which "plenty" are you referring to?

paul?

john?

peter?




Jesus?

 

[ok doser]

... are you at least open to the notion that God might just be able to restore all of creation without some being cast outside of it....

not without rejecting scripture

 

[FineLinen]

Dear O.D. Of course Arthur Brain can back it up!

The doctrine of Eternal Torment is nowhere to be found in ancient Judaism. Somewhere after the close of the Old Testament and Jesus' time, this error began creeping in from the surrounding paganism. The early church was not focused on eternal destiny but rather on apologetics. However, the early church Fathers were largely Universalists. This belief came from the scripture, as it was no where to be found in the surrounding Paganism.

The church fathers closest to the beginning of Christianity and who were well versed in Greek (the language of the New Testament) largely did not believe in endless, torment for the sake of retribution. They believed in limited, corrective punishment based on their understanding of several key Greek words that have been mistranslated. Augustine, the first church father to really promote ET to the exlusion of other beliefs, hated Greek and studied mostly in Latin. When the power of the church shifted from the Greek fathers (Alexandrian) to the Latin, the teachings became largely corrupted.

Prior to 200 AD, there were three schools of thought, within Christianity, concerning human destiny- endless punishment, annihilation (the wicked would simply be wiped out no longer to exist) and universal salvation. But prior to this there was not much, if any controversy over these opinions. Origen, who was the first to really systematize Christianity was a universalist. Even though he was later said to have committed many errors for which he was condemned, Universalism was never among them. Universalism wasn't really attacked and ET didn't come into "favor" until around 540 AD, the beginning of the Middle Ages. Some of the most revered early church fathers were staunch universalists, who gained this understanding from scripture.


God is the Source, Guide, Goal of ta panta

 

[ok doser]

Dear O.D. Of course Arthur Brain can back it up!

sorry, i'm gonna go with Jesus on this:

Matthew 25: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Dear P.P.S.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Please do not hold my youth and inexperience against me.

I have no idea how old you are in physical years. Why would you think someone knows those things on a forum?

Scripture disallows novices in positions of leadership or authority. You’re attempting to come against historical and scriptural doctrine/s, which is a usurpation of leadership and authority on the grandest scale.

It’s not your youth and inexperience that is the issue directly (how could that be if I have no idea of your age, etc.?). The issue is your heresy, no matter how many others share it with you as a false consensus.

My "ignorant neophyte antichrist false doctrine" of actually believing our God is the Saviour of all mankind, malista those who trust in Him, I gladly embrace with other remarkable individuals.

You know not of anything you speak, and a dialectic consensus is irrelevant compared to God’s didactic truth that differs from your insanity of false doctrine.

Adam1= polus made sinners>>>Last Adam= the polus made righteous.

 

[FineLinen]

sorry, i'm gonna go with Jesus on this:

Dear O.D.

There is one (1) passage of Canon for “everlasting punishment” (Matt.25). This one single verse is the cornerstone for the proponents of unending punishment.

This should be so easy!

According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1._______________________________?

2._______________________________?

3._______________________________?

4._______________________________?

5._______________________________?

Please Note

This is the easy part, the questions following this cornerstone text will be harder!

Are our broadest hopes broad enough? Shall there be a nook or abyss, in all the universe of God, finally unlightened by the Cross? Shall there be a sin, or sorrow, or pain unhealed? Is the very universe, is creation in all its extent, a field wide enough for the Son of God?

 

[ok doser]

dude, i don't care if you're going to reject scripture and go to hell - i'll be laughing at you alongside God


for eternity :wave2:

 

[rstrats]

OK doser,
re: "46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Why do you want to believe that the punishment consists of being tormented 24/7 for ever? And why does the verse seem to be making a distinction of the righteous having life eternal when the unrighteous would also have to have life eternal in order to be tormented for ever?

 

[ok doser]

OK doser,
re: "46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Why do you want to believe that the punishment consists of being tormented 24/7 for ever? And why does the verse seem to be making a distinction of the righteous having life eternal when the unrighteous would also have to have life eternal in order to be tormented for ever?

do you think "life eternal" means life as we know it, with traffic jams, toothaches, constipation, bills, taxes, etc?

perhaps "life eternal" means something more :think:

 

[JudgeRightly]

OK doser,
re: "46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Why do you want to believe that the punishment consists of being tormented 24/7 for ever? And why does the verse seem to be making a distinction of the righteous having life eternal when the unrighteous would also have to have life eternal in order to be tormented for ever?

You're confusing physical life and physical death with spiritual death.

You and I are physically alive right now.

If you're a Christian (Romans 10:9-10), you're also alive spiritually.

However, if you are not, even though you are alive physically, you're dead spiritually.

Because "death" is simply separation, not cessation of existence.

Physical life is body, soul, and spirit together.

Physical death is separation of body and soul/spirit.

Spiritual life is having a relationship with God.

Spiritual death is separation from God, not cessation of existence.

Eternal torment implies existence, not non-existence. You could say that those who will experience it are still alive, in a sense, but they're not living. They are dead, but still extant, separated from their Creator who loves them.

 

[FineLinen]

Plenty of the early church didn't think it was heretical so you're hardly an arbiter of what's possible.

Dear Arthur: It appears there are those here on TOL who question your statement.

Like our Lord and his Apostles, the primitive Christians avoided the words with which the Pagans and Jews defined endless punishment aidios or adialeipton timoria (endless torment), a doctrine the latter believed, and knew how to describe; but they, the early Christians, called punishment, as did our Lord, kolasis aionios, discipline, chastisement, of indefinite, limited duration.

The early Christians taught that Christ preached the Gospel to the dead, and for that purpose descended into Hades. Many held that he released all who were in ward. This shows that repentance beyond the grave, perpetual probation, was then accepted, which precludes the modern error that the soul's destiny is decided at death.

Prayers for the dead were universal in the early church, which would be absurd, if their condition is unalterably fixed at the grave.

The risen Christ preaches to the dead

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Arthur: It appears there are those here on TOL who question your statement.

Like our Lord and his Apostles, the primitive Christians avoided the words with which the Pagans and Jews defined endless punishment aidios or adialeipton timoria (endless torment), a doctrine the latter believed, and knew how to describe; but they, the early Christians, called punishment, as did our Lord, kolasis aionios, discipline, chastisement, of indefinite, limited duration.

The early Christians taught that Christ preached the Gospel to the dead, and for that purpose descended into Hades. Many held that he released all who were in ward. This shows that repentance beyond the grave, perpetual probation, was then accepted, which precludes the modern error that the soul's destiny is decided at death.

Prayers for the dead were universal in the early church, which would be absurd, if their condition is unalterably fixed at the grave.

The risen Christ preaches to the dead

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Live=

Zao=

To live, breathe, be among the living (not lifeless, not dead)

Active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God

To be in full vigour

"Disobedient"=

Apeitheia=

The condition of being unpersuadable.

Obstinacy.

Obstinate rejection of the will of God.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

 

[Arthur Brain]

dude, i don't care if you're going to reject scripture and go to hell - i'll be laughing at you alongside God


for eternity :wave2:

He isn't, nor were plenty of the early church and do you think your attitude reflects anything resembling love towards your fellow man?

Only a psychopath would anticipate the suffering of another with laughter.

 

[nikolai_42]

Dear Arthur: It appears there are those here on TOL who question your statement.

Like our Lord and his Apostles, the primitive Christians avoided the words with which the Pagans and Jews defined endless punishment aidios or adialeipton timoria (endless torment), a doctrine the latter believed, and knew how to describe; but they, the early Christians, called punishment, as did our Lord, kolasis aionios, discipline, chastisement, of indefinite, limited duration.

The early Christians taught that Christ preached the Gospel to the dead, and for that purpose descended into Hades. Many held that he released all who were in ward. This shows that repentance beyond the grave, perpetual probation, was then accepted, which precludes the modern error that the soul's destiny is decided at death.

Prayers for the dead were universal in the early church, which would be absurd, if their condition is unalterably fixed at the grave.

There may be those in the early church that prayed for the dead, but doesn't John put the kibosh on that?

If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
I John 5:16

 

[ok doser]

He isn't...

rejecting scripture and heading for hell?

of course he is

nor were plenty of the early church

plenty of the early church were wrong - most of Paul's writings were corrective for those in the early church

and do you think your attitude reflects anything resembling love towards your fellow man?

yes, i do

Only a psychopath would anticipate the suffering of another with laughter.

that's nice :yawn:

 

[Arthur Brain]

you make this claim often - can you back it up or are you just blowing smoke?

be specific - which "plenty" are you referring to?

paul?

john?

peter?




Jesus?

I've made the claim and backed it up often enough. Check out Origen, Gregory of Nyssa etc and the original translations.

Or carry on how about you'd laugh at people in "hell".

 

[Arthur Brain]

rejecting scripture and heading for hell?

of course he is




plenty of the early church were wrong - most of Paul's writing were corrective for those in the early church


yes, i do



that's nice :yawn:

:yawn: is about right.

Only someone completely devoid of or incapable of feeling love or compassion for other people would make any such statement as laughing at the suffering of others.

God is love, you aren't and if you think you'd be laughing at folk in hell "alongside God" then you only show again that you have no idea of what love actually is.

 

[ok doser]

:Only someone completely devoid of or incapable of feeling love or compassion for other people would make any such statement as laughing at the suffering of others.

that's nice :yawn:

God is love,

God is more than love

you aren't

:yawn:

and if you think you'd be laughing at folk in hell "alongside God" then you only show again that you have no idea of what love actually is.

that's nice :yawn: