Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Angel4Truth]

He doesn't literally want to cool his literal tongue with literal water then, right?



Rather, I am trying to make sense of what you have claimed:

yes they are all suffering in torment, the torment of the knowledge of the truth the consuming fire of God - is Christ not called the truth?

What is it you still arent getting? Yes, they thirst, they thirst for life which cannot be had apart from Christ, is Christ not the living water?

You seem to be unable to separate physical and spiritual. Can a spirit burn literally with literal fire?

 

[Angel4Truth]

You seem to want to force that i believe God tortures people, dont you. You seem to want to push that i believe that they have roasting flesh in hell right?

You first need to establish that i believe that. Second you need to answer what you have been asked many times now, it says torment in the bible, tell us what you believe that means and then tell us why you do not believe the bible when it says it.

 

[Doormat]

Jesus said that those who refuse Him are condemned already. Do you believe that or not?

I believe it.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

If you believe it, then where do you think they should be - those that have already been condemned?

Where the prophet Daniel said they are.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[godrulz]

Then the rich man is punished twice, once before the judgement.

Why? You don't say.

Death determines destiny. The punishment begins at death for an unbeliever and the presence of God and pleasure begins at death for the believer (no soul sleep nonsense).

The believer gives formal account at the Bema Seat of Christ after the rapture, but the destiny was already determined at death. A student can be in the classroom months before a final exam (conscious). A lawbreaker can be remanded for months before a final sentencing by the judge. The unbeliever goes where he belongs at death, but the formal and final accounting of life details does not happen until the GWT after the millennium.

This is not two punishments, etc. (huh?), but a waiting period before the final accounting.


This is not rocket science.

 

[godrulz]

Is God literally or figuratively a consuming fire?



Do you believe the flame is literal or figurative in the story of the rich man and Lazarus? It appears you believe the flame is figurative, but you claim the story is literal.

Is the conscious awareness figurative or literal? If Jesus believed your view, why would he give this misleading picture? If you were trying to communicate non-awareness in the after life, would you use the symbols, pictures, sentences that Jesus did? Nope, because it would be the opposite of what you believe to be true. Jesus is truth, not a liar. He is a great teacher, not a misleading, confused one.

 

[godrulz]

I believe it.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.



Where the prophet Daniel said they are.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

OT is elementary, not the full NT progressive revelation. It pictures a general resurrection, but the whole teaching of Scripture gives a more detailed chronology with different events for believer/unbeliever. As well, Daniel talks about resurrection here, while other passages give insight into the inter-death/resurrection period (which for most can be separated by centuries). Other passages would give us info on the intermediate state. We must look at all verses, not one proof text, to formulate doctrine/chronology.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I believe it.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Very good, they will be judged at the white throne judgment on the last day, they are sitting in jail till that time, Jesus even called it a prison:
1 Peter 3:19 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And He preached to those souls who were held in Sheol

Where the prophet Daniel said they are.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

That ignores that Christ went later (after Daniel) and emptied abrahams bosom and preached to those in hades like it says in 1 peter.

Do you think Christ was speaking to the unconscious?

 

[Doormat]

You seem to want to force that i believe God tortures people, dont you. You seem to want to push that i believe that they have roasting flesh in hell right?

Rather, I'm trying to understand what you believe based on what you have posted. I have quoted you. See that post and read what you wrote.

Second you need to answer what you have been asked many times now, it says torment in the bible, tell us what you believe that means ...

I already have. You even responded my post where I told you what it means.

.... and then tell us why you do not believe the bible when it says it.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Rather, I'm trying to understand what you believe based on what you have posted. I have quoted you. See that post and read what you wrote.



I already have. You even responded my post where I told you what it means.



I have no idea what you are talking about.

No, you ignored me completely the 3 times i have asked you what you believe torment means - you want to tell me what you think I think it means, but you have yet to share what you believe it means.

Are you saying that by what you are telling me that i believe, its what you believe? So YOU are who believes that spiritual torment is literal roasting flesh in a literal flame?

 

[Angel4Truth]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I agree you have no idea, since you are flesh minded instead of spiritual minded, and you are focusing on the flesh instead of the spirit which is why you do not understand what im saying.

One more time, can a spirit (which is without flesh) burn in a literal fire?

 

[Doormat]

Very good, they will be judged at the white throne judgment on the last day, they are sitting in jail till that time, Jesus even called it a prison:
1 peter 3:19 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And He preached to those souls who were held in Sheol

Wait. Who are you saying Jesus preached to? The rich man or Lazarus?

That ignores that Christ went later (after Daniel) and emptied abrahams bosom and preached to those in hades like it says in 1 peter.

I believe your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 ignores Daniel 12:2.

God came down to earth to preach to people in bondage to sin (in prison). That is what 1 Peter 3:19 is about. Other scriptures will support that.

Do you think Christ was speaking to the unconscious?

I believe Jesus was dead in the tomb, not in some mythical underworld preaching to dead people. Rev 1:18 ... Jesus said, "I was dead."

And if he wasn't dead, but instead alive preaching to prisoners in hades, why didn't he preach to the dead in the sea, and what compartment is that in your understanding?

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[Doormat]

yes they are all suffering in torment, the torment of the knowledge of the truth the consuming fire of God - is Christ not called the truth?

What is it you still arent getting? Yes, they thirst, they thirst for life which cannot be had apart from Christ, is Christ not the living water?

You seem to be unable to separate physical and spiritual. Can a spirit burn literally with literal fire?

You have claimed the story is literal, but you are explaining that it is figurative.

I believe the story is a parable, so what you are claiming supports my view not your view.

 

[Doormat]

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

OT is elementary, not the full NT progressive revelation.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Wait. Who are you saying Jesus preached to? The rich man or Lazarus?

1 peter 3:19 is not about the rich man and lazarus, but it is about the spirits imprisoned in hell/hades.

Tell me, how does Christ preach to the unconscious spirits there, what would be the point of preaching to sleeping people?

That verse shows clearly they are conscious.

I believe your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 ignores Daniel 12:2.

No it doesnt, because they are still spiritually dead, they are separated from Christ and they will be resurrected in spiritual life to face the final judgment on the last day just like the entire bible says.

We are dead spiritually before we receive Christ, we are raised to life with Him spiritually - we are conscious so are the spirits imprisoned in sheol (the grave/hell/hades)

God came down to earth to preach to people in bondage to sin (in prison). That is what 1 Peter 3:19 is about. Other scriptures will support that.

Thats where you are wrong. The context also follows those who perished in the flood of noah, so you certainly cannot think they are alive.

From the verse literally, its spirits (souls) not flesh, and prison

pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit
Definition: wind, breath, spirit.


5438
phulaké: a guarding, guard, watch
Original Word: φυλακή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: phulaké
Phonetic Spelling: (foo-lak-ay')
Short Definition: a watching, guard, prison, imprisonment
Definition: a watching, keeping guard; a guard, prison; imprisonment.

I believe Jesus was dead in the tomb, not in some mythical underworld preaching to dead people. Rev 1:18 ... Jesus said, "I was dead."

Yes, Jesus suffered death (separation from the Father when our sins were laid on Him)

Since you can call the words of God mythical, its no wonder you are having trouble understanding the truth. The pharisees refused to understand the things of the spirit also and focused on flesh like you are doing.

And if he wasn't dead, but instead alive preaching to prisoners in hades, why didn't he preach to the dead in the sea, and what compartment is that in your understanding?

The dead spirits who perished in the sea, arent there, they were in the grave/sheol which was abrahams bosom/paradise side or the hell/hades side.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Yes we are reunited with our flesh bodies at a later time - like Christ was when He rose again.

You are trying to force things that are flesh into spirit and spirit into flesh and having to completely ignore context to do it.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Now doormat, we are finished untill you start answering the many questions ive asked you.

 

[godrulz]

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There will be a universal physical resurrection, but other verses show that it will be in stages (rapture pre-trib, post-trib, post-mill). All eschatological truth is simply not in one verse.

 

[Timotheos]

Lighthouse
Doormat
Here is a conversaion betwween Lighthouse and Doormat. It illustrates why this discussion is so frustrating for those of us who actually believe what the Bible says, instead of the fairytale of ECT:

Here's a question for you; where does it state that anyone will burn in the Lake of Fire?

2 Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

I don't see it.

What do you believe 2 Peter 3:7 describing?

It doesn't describe anyone being burned up, or consumed, in or by the fire.

Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

How does the fire destroy them if it doesn't burn or consume them?

Also, you didn't answer the question: What do you believe 2 Peter 3:7 describing?

Then Lighthouse leaves the conversation.

 

[chrysostom]

Tim,
while I admire what you are doing here
I am not following the thread that closely
so
tell me
who besides freelight and I agree with you?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Jesus explained the point of the parable just before he told the parable.

Luke 16:14-16

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

The rich man in the parable represents the Pharisees who were covetous.

You forgot the part where He comforts them in their covetousness, "go in peace...it will be well with your soul...God will put you to sleep"

 

[Timotheos]

Tim,
while I admire what you are doing here
I am not following the thread that closely
so
tell me
who besides freelight and I agree with you?

I think just Doormat, Bybee, Keypurr and Lazyafternoon.
(and Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, Jude, Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel, David, Solomon, Jeremiah, and all of the minor prophets, Irenaeus, The folks at Rethinkinghell.com, Chris Date, Glenn Peoples, Glen Moyer, Greg Boyd, Edward Fudge, John Stott, Tyndale, Martin Luther until he caved to pressure from Calvin, C.S. Lewis' father in law... and I think Jesus Christ, but the other side claims that He agrees with them...)

That darned snake from the garden disagrees with me completely.

Edit, I just realized that I should not have written the names of those who agree with me. There is a mob of angry villagers and a big fire just outside of town waiting for us. Sorry about that, my brothers. I'll save a warm place next to the fire for you.

Also: Dr. Weymouth says, "My mind fails to conceive a grosser misinterpretation of language than when the five or six strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying 'destroy,' or 'destruction,' are explained to mean maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence. To translate black as white is nothing to this."