I must have missed that. But He did say to them: "You will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come." John 8:21
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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I must have missed that. But He did say to them: "You will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come." John 8:21
Context, of course the lost cannot go to where Christ goes, because they end up in hell, instead of heaven where Christ will be:
21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”
22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Only the lost die in their sin, the saved do not, because they have passed from death to life and do not come under judgment.
But you don't believe that the lost die in their sin. You believe that they live forever in hell being tormented for their sin.
But look at what Jesus said happens to those who go to Gehenna (Hell) in Matthew 10:28
Aimiel
Well-known member
So you've cut out parts of your Bible?!?
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I think He will take away your part out of The Book of Life...
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
You'd best repent of that and get a new Bible and not cut any words out of It.
Aimiel
Well-known member
You may not believe this but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
Proverbs 11:14
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
You're setting yourself up to fall.
No, it's typical of cults to teach that there is no hell: Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Moonies, Scientology, Christian Science and most any New Age cults teach such tripe.
Roman Catholics do hold that ECT is true, so I do agree with that portion of their dogma, yes. Research into The Bible proves that ECT is very real.
No, my God allows men to do as they will. If they refuse His pardon found only in His Son they are punished. God gave men free will.
I never heard of the guy, I just liked the paragraph which I quoted. He's right. I do know what God's Spirit does but He doesn't have anything to do with death. Death is a spirit and it is an enemy of God. He is The Author of Life. The only thing His Spirit consumes is everything that is not like Him. The souls of men are not destroyed, obviously, as Scriptures state. Men will be tormented in eternal flames, as The Bible teaches, whether you can ever accept that fact in this life or not, it will still take place.
TruthSetsFree
New member
Hell is eternal death
Mt 25:31-46 says that those who dont take care of others... neglect to help others... will go off to eternal punishment..
This is Jesus's own words and they are reflected in other psgs as well
the JWs believe there is no Hell... that evil ones just cease 2 exist
that is punishmetn?
no, it is not
it is freedom from punishment
and that is not justice
If a person goes to Hell it is because he chooses to... it is not God's choice
You had best repent of taking out the words "eternal punishment" and adding in the words "eternal conscious torment".
Or just learn HOW TO READ! I didn't cut parts out of my Bible, I'm just reading what's there and not reading what's not there. Don't have a conniption fit.
Aimiel
Well-known member
To be punished eternally, one must be conscious. It's obvious. You're defending a straw man.
Cults teach ECT so you may not want to go in that direction. The Mormons teach ECT in Hell. Muslims teach ECT in Hell. Adolf Hitler believed in ECT in Hell. The Spanish Inquisition Believed in ECT in Hell. Every Doomsday Suicide Cult since the year 999 AD taught the tripe of ECT in Hell, just before they drank the poison.
You're setting yourself up for a fall with this argument. More Cults teach ECT than teach no Hell, Cults love ECT in Hell because it helps them control their flock.
The "Cults teach that so it's wrong" is a logical fallacy anyway, the fallacy is called "Poisoning the well". Not everything that a cult teaches is automatically wrong. Two plus two equals four, even if your math teacher is a Mormon or a Muslim.
What matters is what the Bible says, and the Bible does not support ECT in Hell.
Or they could be destroyed and remain destroyed forever. You are defending a straw man. It's obvious. If they are destroyed, that's punishment. If they never live again, that's eternal. It's obvious.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Were that the case, other respected Christians as well as myself would have no problem. Unfortunately, Jesus was very clear and so we must believe Scripture rather than yourself.
Aimiel, you never commented on any of this:
If you want to believe scripture, why don't you believe this part of scripture? None of this is MY opinion, I'm just reading scripture:
If you want to believe scripture, why don't you believe this part of scripture? None of this is MY opinion, I'm just reading scripture:
Like Mr. Lighthouse does?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse
Here's a question for you; where does it state that anyone will burn in the Lake of Fire?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doormat
2 Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse
I don't see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doormat
What do you believe 2 Peter 3:7 describing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse
It doesn't describe anyone being burned up, or consumed, in or by the fire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doormat
Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
How does the fire destroy them if it doesn't burn or consume them?
Also, you didn't answer the question: What do you believe 2 Peter 3:7 describing?
Then Lighthouse leaves the conversation.
I get the feeling that ECTists don't care what scripture actually says. They believe what they believe and nobody and nothing is going to change that.
Doormat
New member
I told you what I believe torment means in the context of the parable when you asked the first time, and I told you that the second time you asked. Here is the answer I gave the first time:
Please don't insist that I didn't answer you because it's obvious I did answer you.
You are going to have to rephrase those questions because they are not intelligible.
You are bearing false witness. Please stop.
If you are asking me if common fire can burn spirit, my answer is unequivocally no.
If the literal fire is God (eternal fire), what would your answer be?
IMJerusha
New member
No, the rich man does not have a body such as we currently have because he has died. Being in spirit does not mean that spirit has no form. When we review Scripture regarding the transfiguration, clearly, Moses and Elijah have recognizable form.
Why isn't an appeal to belief convincing to you? How is God real to you? How is Yeshua and Ruach HaKodesh real to you? Doormat, Scripture doesn't answer all our questions. If it did, there would be a whole lot more believers than there are.
I don't think so and the reason I don't is because there are no characters with names in any of Yeshua's other parables. I had this conversation with my husband and his response was that the rich man had no name. When I thought about that, I came to wonder if people no longer have names when they are consigned to hell. Perhaps only those who's names are written in the Book of Life have names. Perhaps those in hell are only known by the sins they committed. Clearly the rich man's wealth and lack of care for fellow human being's suffering under his nose got him where he was. How is it, Doormat, that you are comfortable applying analogy that may or may not be correct but you're not convinced by what is plainly there/simply written? I'm not asking that in a derogatory or condescending fashion either.
Zeke
Well-known member
For anyone who feels within their spirit that this doctrine is ungodly, and doesn't reflect the true nature of the Father check out toxic bibles, you might break the trance of the tradistionalist hate dogma, and their bible worship cult over the testament of the spirit that proclaims all things are possible with the Creator.
Doormat
New member
If you believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus is literal, and the rich man was/is in hell/hades according to the story, it follows that you must believe Jesus preached to the rich man in hades.
If you believe Jesus preached to the "spirits imprisoned in hell/hades," explain what would be the point of him doing that? And if you believe he preached to those in Abraham's bosom, explain why paradise would be called prison and why Saints would have to wait in prison.
I have already explained. God came down to earth to preach to the dead, those who were in bondage to sin (the prison). Here are some supporting scriptures:
| Isaiah 42:22 But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore. Zechariah 9:11-12 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water. Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee. Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound. 1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. |
It should be obvious that 1 Peter 4:6 is about people dead in their sin because those are the only ones who can be "judged according to men in the flesh." 1 Peter 3:19 must be interpreted in light of 1 Peter 4:6.
The translators mistakenly joined two separate coherent thoughts into one incoherent thought. Separately, they make sense.
"…the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient."
(new thought)
"When the longsuffering of God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water, there is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism…"
Revelation 20:13 occurs at the end, yet you are implying what? Please explain the meaning of Revelation 20:13 in light of your doctrine.
IMJerusha
New member
I was going to post Matthew 25:41-46 also until I saw you berating Aimiel (yes, he berated you as well...happy?) So your argument is that eternal punishment doesn't occur because people who are dead have no consciousness?
No, I logged off TOL before Doormat posted that last time, you dishonest troll.
There are many things that can destroy a person without relieving them of existence.
And Peter was describing the same as Paul, regarding those in Christ:
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
-1 Corinthians 3:12-15
As for those not in Christ, a fire can burn but not burn up/consume; look at the burning bush, for instance.