Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[IMJerusha]

Since there were no commas in the original:
"Then he said 'Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom.' Jesus answered him 'Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise.' "

Could be:
Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.
Or it could be:
Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.

But we know that Jesus was in the grave later that day, and was in the grave until early sunday morning...

The first is correct. The second would be redundant.
When a body dies, it is separated from its soul/spirit, so Yeshua's Spirit was not really in the grave until it was re-united with His body at His resurrection.

 

[IMJerusha]

Also, some posters likely believe the harrowing of hell (false) doctrine. If so, those posters can't claim Jesus was in paradise that day.

Excuse me, is not God in all time at all time? Is God bothered with the concept of time and space at all? What limits can we put on God? If Yeshua's Spirit was at the beginning, was it not at the end at the same time? There's plenty of Scripture to support what is known as the harrowing of hell doctrine so if it's false, it's every bit as false as OSAS and other doctrines of man based on Scripture.

 

[Doormat]

Perhaps, since they say the story of Lazarus and Dives is just a parable and used for the purpose of making certain points, they could explain what those points are for which the parable is put forth .

Jesus explained the point of the parable just before he told the parable.

Luke 16:14-16

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

The rich man in the parable represents the Pharisees who were covetous.

 

[Doormat]

Excuse me, is not God in all time at all time? Is God bothered with the concept of time and space at all? What limits can we put on God? If Yeshua's Spirit was at the beginning, was it not at the end at the same time?

I can only speculate to answer your questions, but according to the harrowing of hell doctrine Jesus was not in paradise that day and was allegedly experiencing a period of time in hades/hell.

There's plenty of Scripture to support what is known as the harrowing of hell doctrine ...

I disagree. The harrowing of hell (false) doctrine is based on faulty interpretations of 1 Peter 3:19-20 and 1 Peter 4:6.

 

[IMJerusha]

I can only speculate to answer your questions, but according to the harrowing of hell doctrine Jesus was not in paradise that day and was allegedly experiencing a period of time in hades/hell.

Again, God created time for us. That doesn't mean that time governs Him

I disagree. The harrowing of hell (false) doctrine is based on faulty interpretations of 1 Peter 3:19-20 and 1 Peter 4:6.

Can't call it false if there's Scripture to support it.

Acts 2:27
Acts 2:31
1Peter 3:19-20
1Peter 4:6
Zechariah 9:11
Isaiah 24:21-22
Ephesians 4:8-10

 

[godrulz]

Since there were no commas in the original:
"Then he said 'Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom.' Jesus answered him 'Truly I tell you today you will be with me in paradise.' "

Could be:
Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.
Or it could be:
Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.

But we know that Jesus was in the grave later that day, and was in the grave until early sunday morning...

JWs use this specious argument. There is a reason for the standard view on where the comma goes. It is strained to put it elsewhere for the purpose of retaining a wrong view.

 

[godrulz]

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The context is the future resurrection, glorified body. Other contexts hint at the intermediate state following death centuries before the future resurrection.

 

[godrulz]

2 Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

How does the fire destroy them if it doesn't burn or consume them?

Also, you didn't answer the question: What do you believe 2 Peter 3:7 describing?

The fire of the burning bush of Moses did not destroy the bush.

Destruction does not have to mean annihilation and cannot mean so in light of other verses that show consciousness after death.

 

[Doormat]

Again, God created time for us. That doesn't mean that time governs Him.

From what you have posted, it appears you don't believe Jesus was localized in a body when he allegedly went to hades, somewhere he apparently hadn't been before that time period.

Can't call it false if there's Scripture to support it.

Acts 2:27
Acts 2:31
1Peter 3:19-20
1Peter 4:6
Zechariah 9:11
Isaiah 24:21-22
Ephesians 4:8-10

There are alternate interpretations of those scripture that make sense. The harrowing of hell interpretation makes no sense, and can be proven false without having to address those scriptures.

Why did Jesus have to "rescue" people from "Hell?" Why were they there unless they deserved to be there? Were they sent there by mistake? And why were they tormented in fire in hades before the resurrection and the judgement?

 

[IMJerusha]

From what you have posted, it appears you don't believe Jesus was localized in a body when he allegedly went to hades, somewhere he apparently hadn't been before that time period.

I don't believe that people's spirits remain in their bodies after death, no.

There are alternate interpretations of those scripture that make sense. The harrowing of hell interpretation makes no sense, and can be proven false without having to address those scriptures.

There are always alternate interpretations of Scripture. Hence the many opposing doctrines. The HoH makes no sense to you but it apparently makes plenty of sense to a lot of Christians.

Why did Jesus have to "rescue" people from "Hell?" Why were they there unless they deserved to be there? Were they sent there by mistake? And why were they tormented in fire in hades before the resurrection and the judgement?

I don't know exactly. God doesn't make mistakes. Perhaps it had something to do with second chances. Why would Yeshua tell about Lazarus and the rich man before the resurrection and judgment? Some things we just don't know.

 

[Doormat]

The fire of the burning bush of Moses did not destroy the bush.

Daniel 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

 

[godrulz]

Daniel 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

You have an e.g. of how someone can be alive and in flames while still existing.

 

[Doormat]

The context is the future resurrection, glorified body.

Irrelevant to the point I was making.

Other contexts hint at the intermediate state following death centuries before the future resurrection.

Specifically?

 

[Doormat]

You have an e.g. of how someone can be alive and in flames while still existing.

Daniel 3:22 Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

 

[godrulz]

Irrelevant to the point I was making.



Specifically?

Spiritual body vs physical, glorified body. Resurrection is always physical, not of a spirit. There is likely a temporary body/tent in heaven until future physical resurrection. The fact is that Jesus was conscious in heaven after His death and saints will also be with Him at death even if not fully glorified yet. There is no evidence for specious soul sleep heresies promoted by SDA/JW.

 

[godrulz]

Their bodies were burned, but their spirit-soul continued in the after life. The 4th person, pre-incarnate Christ, was also in fire without being destroyed. The lake of fire is not a literal fire like a house fire. The reality is worse than the symbol. Hell is not physical torment like a BBQ (medieval view). It is a place of selfish rebellion/separation from a holy God and His immediate relational presence (it could be a playground, but it would still be away from God).

 

[Doormat]

I don't believe that people's spirits remain in their bodies after death, no.

Neither do I, which is one reason I believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus is clearly a parable. The rich man has a body.

There are always alternate interpretations of Scripture. Hence the many opposing doctrines. The HoH makes no sense to you but it apparently makes plenty of sense to a lot of Christians.

That may be, but an appeal to belief is not convincing to me. I'd like one of them to show me it makes sense, but typically they can't answer my questions.

I don't know exactly. God doesn't make mistakes. Perhaps it had something to do with second chances. Why would Yeshua tell about Lazarus and the rich man before the resurrection and judgment? Some things we just don't know.

The rich man and Lazaurus is a parable. The covetous Pharisees (the rich man) were dead in their sins, while the downtrodden of society (Lazarus) who believed Jesus were raised to life through faith (Abraham's bosom).

 

[Angel4Truth]

I'm not able to discern an answer from your response. Can you help me to understand your position better? There are a number of views of Hell and Hades. Why do you believe hell/hades is the same place? What do you believe the lake of fire is/means? Do you believe people go straight to hell/hades following death? Do you believe there will be a resurrection of the wicked and a judgement?

Hell is sheol and means the grave, it once had 2 parts, abrahams bosom/paradise and hades, the hades portion is still there - but i believe that the souls in the paradise portion were taken to heaven with Christ when He ascended into heaven (Christ said to the theif today you will be with me in paradise (which is abrahams bosom before being emptied) now when a believer dies, since they have already been judged according to Christ - they have already passed from death to life (life eternal) and are directly in heaven upon the loss of physical life, since there is no judgment for the believer.

There will be a future judgment of all those who are not in Christ after the millennial reign of Christ on earth. The spiritually dead will be resurrected to spiritual life to face God, bend his knee and receive His judgment - and then be sentenced to a second (spiritual) death which is eternal separation from God.

John 5:29

you can go back through the thread and see what i believe, its already been laid all out if you need more than just the above summary as ive already been through it and posted the verses that support my view, no need to be redundant.

 

[steko]

Hell is sheol and means the grave, it once had 2 parts, abrahams bosom/paradise and hades, the hades portion is still there - but i believe that the souls in the paradise portion were taken to heaven with Christ when He ascended into heaven (Christ said to the theif today you will be with me in paradise (which is abrahams bosom before being emptied) now when a believer dies, since they have already been judged according to Christ - they have already passed from death to life (life eternal) and are directly in heaven upon the loss of physical life, since there is no judgment for the believer.

There will be a future judgment of all those who are not in Christ after the millennial reign of Christ on earth. The spiritually dead will be resurrected to spiritual life to face God, bend his knee and receive His judgment - and then be sentenced to a second (spiritual) death which is eternal separation from God.

John 5:29

:thumb:

 

[Doormat]

Spiritual body vs physical, glorified body. Resurrection is always physical, not of a spirit. There is likely a temporary body/tent in heaven until future physical resurrection. The fact is that Jesus was conscious in heaven after His death and saints will also be with Him at death even if not fully glorified yet. There is no evidence for specious soul sleep heresies promoted by SDA/JW.

What does this response have to do with anything I've posted? :idunno:

Other contexts hint at the intermediate state following death centuries before the future resurrection.

Can you give me specific examples or not?