Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[ok doser]

Tim's problem is his definition of death

timmy's problem is that he's an obsessive retard

 

[Timotheos]

timmy's problem is that he's an obsessive retard

Doser is obsessed with me. Are you secretly in love with me? Sorry, I'm already taken. Also, you should know that I am not a homosexual.

 

[way 2 go]

Death means the end of life. Being dead means not being alive any longer. Your problem is your definition of death, which you have twisted to mean "To remain alive forever". That is the exact OPPOSITE of death.

so not a place

Isa 14:9 The place of death is excited that you are coming

not a statement of your spiritual condition

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses,made us alive together with Christ

Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Actually, I can. Paul is talking about the certainty of death for those who remain in sin. It is just like he wrote, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." There is only eternal life in Christ. There is no eternal life in sin.

"were dead" is past tense

This means that every living thing died in the flood. Apparently you think that everyone who died in the flood remained alive in the flood. "Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark". But your problem is your false definition of death.

you think death is only physical and that is your aggressive ignorance

That's baloney and you know it. I can easily explain death in Rev 20:12 and I have many times. You just aren't paying attention, because you never pay attention to anyone that you don't already agree with. I've told you tormentists a thousand times that the reason that the dead are able to stand before the throne is because they have been RESURRECTED!!!! Your false doctrine COMPLETELY FORGETS that the dead are resurrected! Why is that? Why do you deny the resurrection?

so you do believe dead people can be alive. :rotfl:

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire
The lake of fire is THE SECOND DEATH! Why can't you understand this? The lake of fire is not eternal LIFE being tortured alive, it is DEATH. Why can't you understand this? And if Hell is eternal, why is it thrown into the lake of fire? And if the lake of fire is hell, how is hell thrown into itself?

:kookoo:

You don't know what you are talking about, and you don't know what the Scriptures say. The wages of sin is death, but you ignore that.

Paul tells us we were born alive and sin came alive and I died
but you don't want to see that because your argument falls apart if you do.

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

The gift of God is eternal life, but you ignore that.

no we don't we understand there is a difference between
life in Christ and just being alive you aggressively ignore that.

The soul who sins shall die, but you ignore that.

:nono: that would be you avoiding admitting spiritual death


Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Whosoever believes in Him shall not PERISH but will have ETERNAL LIFE, but you ignore that.

how so

In order to hang onto your false doctrine of torture, you have to ignore all of the rest of Scripture. Why is that? Why do you ignore plain scripture?

no scripture ignored but you have admitted
you can be dead and yet alive so there is that


:carryon:

 

[Timotheos]

so you do believe dead people can be alive. :rotfl:


:kookoo:

Yes. I believe that dead people are alive when Jesus Christ resurrects them from death. I don't know how a person can think that they are a Christian if they do not believe that God can and will resurrect the dead.
"For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins." 1 Corinthians 15:16-17 (ESV)

It is plain that you do not know what you are talking about.

 

[lifeisgood]

Yes. I believe that dead people are alive when Jesus Christ resurrects them from death. I don't know how a person can think that they are a Christian if they do not believe that God can and will resurrect the dead.
"For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins." 1 Corinthians 15:16-17 (ESV)

It is plain that you do not know what you are talking about.

way 2 go was not talking about resurrection.

 

[CherubRam]

Yes. I believe that dead people are alive when Jesus Christ resurrects them from death. I don't know how a person can think that they are a Christian if they do not believe that God can and will resurrect the dead.
"For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins." 1 Corinthians 15:16-17 (ESV)

It is plain that you do not know what you are talking about.

They are bent on preaching their father's Serpent doctrine of life in Hell.

 

[Timotheos]

way 2 go was not talking about resurrection.

He asked me how is was that the dead are able to stand before God at the final judgment as described in Revelation 20:12. If he was not talking about resurrection then it must be that tormentalists do not believe in the resurrection of the dead and the final judgment of the wicked.

If way2go wasn't talking about resurrection, what was he talking about?

 

[way 2 go]

Yes. I believe that dead people are alive when Jesus Christ resurrects them from death. I don't know how a person can think that they are a Christian if they do not believe that God can and will resurrect the dead.
"For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins." 1 Corinthians 15:16-17 (ESV)

It is plain that you do not know what you are talking about.

:rotfl:

Rev 20:12 is present tense


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing

Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
Death means the end of life. Being dead means not being alive any longer. Your problem is your definition of death, which you have twisted to mean "To remain alive forever". That is the exact OPPOSITE of death.

Paul tells us we were born alive and sin came alive and we died (past tense)


Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.


Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
"were dead" is past tense

 

[Timotheos]

:rotfl:

Rev 20:12 is present tense

Rev 20:12 is past tense. "I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened." The past tense refers to the time when John saw this in his vision. The vision was of future events, Revelation 4:1 says "I will show you what must take place after this."

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing

This is what John saw in his vision of future events. The reason that the dead are able to stand before the throne when the books are opened is because the dead have been resurrected from death and they are alive again.

Paul tells us we were born alive and sin came alive and we died (past tense)


Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.


Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
"were dead" is past tense

Paul is speaking of the certainty of death for those who refuse to repent. He isn't saying that they literally died. Paul wrote that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ. This shows that Paul believed that the penalty for sin is death, and the gift for those who are in Christ is eternal life. The choice for Paul, and for us, is between being eternally alive or being dead. The choice is not between eternal life and an eternal life of torture in hell.

 

[Timotheos]

:rotfl:

Way, what are your thoughts about John 3:16? Have you considered John 3:16 as it pertains to this topic?

 

[freelight]

the mythology of 'hell'........

the mythology of 'hell'........

Continuing from my last post here

 

[way 2 go]

Quote Originally Posted by Timotheos View Post
Death means the end of life. Being dead means not being alive any longer. Your problem is your definition of death, which you have twisted to mean "To remain alive forever". That is the exact OPPOSITE of death.

they have a name for this :shocked:

Illegitimate Totality Transfer


Illegitimate Totality Transfer simply means to illegitimately ( wrongly) transfer a word’s total possible meaning, with all its variations and nuances, and forcing them all into a particular context.

Rev 20:12 is past tense. "I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened." The past tense refers to the time when John saw this in his vision. The vision was of future events, Revelation 4:1 says "I will show you what must take place after this."

says "the dead"
not
"those who were dead"

This is what John saw in his vision of future events. The reason that the dead are able to stand before the throne when the books are opened is because the dead have been resurrected from death and they are alive again.

referred to as dead because they are still dead
they never received life from Jesus
Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life

Paul is speaking of the certainty of death for those who refuse to repent. He isn't saying that they literally died. Paul wrote that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ. This shows that Paul believed that the penalty for sin is death, and the gift for those who are in Christ is eternal life. The choice for Paul, and for us, is between being eternally alive or being dead. The choice is not between eternal life and an eternal life of torture in hell.

more Illegitimate Totality Transfer

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

clearly not talking future. died is past tense.

Paul understood spiritual death,
he was born spiritually alive then when the law came and he died spiritually.



Joh 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
what do they have instead of life ?

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Joh 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

 

[way 2 go]

Way, what are your thoughts about John 3:16? Have you considered John 3:16 as it pertains to this topic?

Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

 

[freelight]

The insanity must end......

The insanity must end......

As you can see, as I noted in my commentaries earlier...the problem with finding a 'biblical' answer or qualifying a doctrine or anything as 'biblical'...is confounded by the different possible translations and interpretations assumed.

Furthermore we have only the limited passages given in what books make up the Bible...so it is limited to itself, not taking into account what other religious books, records and human experience have granted us from ancient to modern times concerning the afterlife. This is where more modern knowledge, psychical research, NDE studies, the latest scientific evidence for the afterlife, and other revelations may help us see the bigger picture.

Beyond all this insanity of endless torture perpetrated by tradition and mythology...must be a heaven of boundless love, if God is truly our Heavenly Father.

 

[rstrats]

way 2 go,

Do you want the folks who end up not being included in the Book of Life to spend eternity being tortured?

 

[ok doser]

what does his "want" have to do with it?

do you "want" to force God to conform to your idea of justice and mercy?

 

[lifeisgood]

That is what the Pagans teach about Hell. The word Hell is not in the original text of the scriptures. So how do you deal with that fact?

Did Jesus not talk about Gehenna?

 

[lifeisgood]

No, I simply agree with what the Bible says. And the Bible never once says that a person never dies. You made that up. As a matter of fact, the Bible says "The soul who sins SHALL die". So the Bible blows your false theory right out of the water. Not only can a person die, but the person who sins shall die. Jesus even said in Luke 13:3 "Unless you repent, you will surely perish". You are not only disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Jesus Christ.

Did not Adam and Eve die, even though they were alive?

So, the Bible does not say anywhere that God established an eternal hell. You just demand that I believe that without any proof whatsoever. Sorry, I believe what the Bible says instead of what you claim.

So, you have never read that Hell was created for the Devil and his henchmen from the beginning. Got it.

Secondly, IF God HAD established an eternal hell, I would like it just fine. You simply have not established that God actually did that. So try again. Search the Scriptures for any place that says that God established an eternal hell. It isn't there.

Yes, Hell is terrifying and some prefer to discard what the Bible say and create their own doctrine.

Thirdly, as I have proven, people do die whether you like it or not.

People are born dead and they are resurrected when they hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross of Calvary.

Then, when a person die physically, that person changes from one condition (physical) to another condition (spiritual) and continue living for ever and ever and ever and ever either in Hell or Heaven. The decision is up to the person for God has done everything He can do for a person NOT to go to Hell.

I just believe what the Bible says, whether you like it or not.

And the Bible says that Hell is eternal, prepared for the Devil and his henchmen. The ONLY way NOT to go to Hell and make the Devil and his henchmen company is to be found IN CHRIST.

Hell is eternal.
Heaven is eternal.

Now, you, Timotheos, can believe whatever you want.

 

[lifeisgood]

way 2 go,

Do you want the folks who end up not being included in the Book of Life to spend eternity being tortured?

God established the rules before the foundation of the world, if I like His rules or I don't like His rules, He is not changing because of my likes or dislikes. Therefore, the one who has to change is me/I/myself and depending on my decision about God's rules accordingly will be the rewards, that I like it or not is irrelevant. The rules are established, so also the rewards.

 

[CherubRam]

Did Jesus not talk about Gehenna?

Gehenna does not translate as Hell. It is a place and a word used to mean destruction. Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Christ came speaking in parables. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem.

According to Archaeologist, there is no evidence to support that Gehenna was a place for burning garbage. There were however lots of Potsherds found.


Jeremiah 19:2
and go out to the Valley of Ben Hinnom, near the entrance of the Potsherd Gate. There proclaim the words I tell you,


Jeremiah 19:11
and say to them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty says: I will smash this nation and this city just as this potter’s jar is smashed and cannot be repaired. They will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.