dodge
New member
YOU believe and teach contrary to what Jesus taught !
Jesus taught:
Mar 9:46
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
They do not die in hell as Jesus taught they live in eternal torment.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
YOU believe and teach contrary to what Jesus taught !
Jesus taught:
Mar 9:46
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
They do not die in hell as Jesus taught they live in eternal torment.
Sorry, no. I do not "believe and teach contrary to what Jesus taught".
If you look at the verse you are referring to for one second you can see that it does not say "Bad people will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever."
Just look at the verse our Lord Jesus Christ was quoting in Mark 9. That verse is Isaiah 66:24
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.” (ESV)
As you can plainly see, those who rebelled against God have become DEAD BODIES, not living dead ghosts being tortured alive in hell. Are you able to see that Isaiah 66:24 says DEAD BODIES? This shows that they are NOT living people being tortured alive.
As a matter of fact, You are one who believes and teaches contrary to what Jesus taught. You claim that the wicked will not die in hell, but they will live forever in hell in eternal torment. This contradicts what Jesus said in MAtthew 10:28, "Fear the one who is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell (Gehenna)."
Don't insult me while you contradict the Lord's own words.
dodge
New member
When Jesus was resurrected did HE not have a body ?
Some will be resurrected into everlasting life and some into everlasting death where they CANNOT die.
Luk 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Dan 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Yes, when Jesus was resurrected He had a body.
The Bible does not say that the wicked will inherit eternal life when they are resurrected for Judgement. The Bible does not say that the resurrected wicked cannot die. The Bible says that they will go to their second death, so not only CAN they die, they will die. They will perish, just as the Bible clearly states.
You haven't admitted defeat on the immortal fireproof worms yet. Did you read Isaiah 66?
Have you even read John 3:16? Do you know what it says? How about Matthew 10:28? Have you read that? Why do you disagree with what Jesus Christ said in Matthew 10:28? Why do you put the traditions of men ahead of the Word of God?
dodge
New member
Why would I admit defeat when YOU are wrong ?
Mat 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Hard for folks to gnash their teeth and wail if they are burned up now isn't it !
Another verse for you to consider:
Mat 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
CherubRam
New member
How come it does not register with you that Christ and the prophets spoke in parables?
lifeisgood
New member
[MENTION=14853]Timotheos[/MENTION]
It does not matter that you are given verses from the Bible, you don't like that God has established an eternal Hell; therefore, you have decided that it does not exist or will ever exist. You can believe whatever you decide is best for you.
Besides a person never dies. Simply changes from one condition to another.
It does not matter that you are given verses from the Bible, you don't like that God has established an eternal Hell; therefore, you have decided that it does not exist or will ever exist. You can believe whatever you decide is best for you.
Besides a person never dies. Simply changes from one condition to another.
dodge
New member
How come you do not understand that the rich man and Lazarus is NOT a parable ? No parable uses proper names as the rich man and Lazarus.
Everything Jesus and the prophets taught was taught NOT a parable , but many folks turn what they do not like into a parable in their minds to AVOID the truth of scripture.
CherubRam
New member
That is what the Pagans teach about Hell. The word Hell is not in the original text of the scriptures. So how do you deal with that fact?
CherubRam
New member
You are right about one thing, and that is the story about Lazarus and the rich man not being a parable. Mark 4:34
He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything.
Use a bold font, big letters and bright colors when your argument is weak. That will make it appear stronger.
According to you then, the furnace is faulty. It doesn't even burn up (katakausai) what is put into it.
Matthew 13:42 does not say that those who are to be burnt up in the furnace will continue to weep and gnash their teeth for all eternity.
Yes it is. However, the verse doesn't say that they continue to weep and gnash their teeth forever, does it? Try for some other proof of your doctrine, because this one doesn't work.
Nice big font, bright color, but ultimately this argument fails too, since you and I both agree that there is eternal punishment. What we are doing now is discussing what that punishment consists of. Do you think that being completely destroyed and remaining completely destroyed for all eternity is anything less than an eternal punishment?
Here is something else for you to consider about Matthew 25:46, If only one group goes off to eternal life, how is it that you think both groups receive eternal life, one group in eternal bliss and the other group having eternal life in hellish torture?
You need to rethink your doctrine so that it agrees with what the Bible says.
What does John 3:16 say in your Bible? Do you know what it says? How about Matthew 10:28? Why do you disagree with what Jesus says? Why do you set aside the Word of God in order to hold onto your tradition?
dodge
New member
I do not disagree with Jesus nor scripture I disagree with your perversion of what Jesus taught and of scripture.
No, I simply agree with what the Bible says. And the Bible never once says that a person never dies. You made that up. As a matter of fact, the Bible says "The soul who sins SHALL die". So the Bible blows your false theory right out of the water. Not only can a person die, but the person who sins shall die. Jesus even said in Luke 13:3 "Unless you repent, you will surely perish". You are not only disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Jesus Christ.
So, the Bible does not say anywhere that God established an eternal hell. You just demand that I believe that without any proof whatsoever. Sorry, I believe what the Bible says instead of what you claim.
Secondly, IF God HAD established an eternal hell, I would like it just fine. You simply have not established that God actually did that. So try again. Search the Scriptures for any place that says that God established an eternal hell. It isn't there.
Thirdly, as I have proven, people do die whether you like it or not.
I just believe what the Bible says, whether you like it or not.
Actually, throughout our discussion I have had to correct your misinterpretations of scripture. I could you twice trying to claim that Matthew 25:41 says that Hell was created for the devil and his minions. You also didn't know that in Mark 7, Jesus was quoting Isaiah 66:24 where it says that those who rebel against God will be corpses, not living worms alive in the fire and being tortured.
I don't have any perversion of what Jesus taught and of scripture. I simply believe what Jesus taught and what scripture says instead of what you believe. I suggest that you rethink your doctrine so that it agrees with what Jesus taught and what Scripture says.
Your false doctrine is that God sends people to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever while they are dead. You believe that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell instead of death as the Bible clearly states.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Tim's problem is his definition of death
Tim can't explain death here Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Gen_7:22 Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died.
Tim can't explain death here Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Just for the 'hell' of it........
Just for the 'hell' of it........
Try first the notion that 'God' would condemn any of his creation to suffer for all eternity without offering them relief, resolve or salvation. On principle alone this caricature of 'God' is contrary to love and its will. It is against the very character of 'God'. Love could not construe or devise such a punishment.
We've already covered the issue of 'aionios'....which pertains to an 'age'...not an endless state or condition. Eons are dispensations that have a beginnings and endings. Therefore where the word 'aionios' is in certain passages....these souls are given rewards and punishments that pertain to an 'age'...they are 'age-lasting'.
As far as 'hell' goes.....
'Sheol' and 'Hades' refer to the grave, the abode of the dead, the underworld. They are figurative terms. 'Gehenna' is a physical location where refuse, dead bodies, waste was burned and in olden times, children where sacrificed to pagan gods,..its an accursed place of desolation, ruin, disintegration, death. Jesus knew his audience would know the term as that place of desolation in the valley of hinnnom. Fires there consume the materials and worms eat the rotting flesh there....there is no LIFE there.
'Tartarus'(tartaroo) is from Greek mythology, both a deity and a place in the underworld....a place of punishment as well for various sinners and rebels. It was then adopted by the Book of Enoch and then the writer of 2nd Peter as the place of detainment for fallen angels, etc. All this was later embellished in the english word 'hell' (put in the bible by translators) and meshed with the 'lake of fire' metaphor in the book of Revelation...then with english words 'eternal' and 'everlasting' for 'aion' (age)...to fuel the traditional concept of ECT.
Literally, 'hell' is not in the original text of the Bible. Most traditional imagery and concepts of 'hellfire' are figurative, borrowed from older mythologies and religious traditions, then fused with more figurative language in certain bible translations.
Just for the 'hell' of it........
Try first the notion that 'God' would condemn any of his creation to suffer for all eternity without offering them relief, resolve or salvation. On principle alone this caricature of 'God' is contrary to love and its will. It is against the very character of 'God'. Love could not construe or devise such a punishment.
We've already covered the issue of 'aionios'....which pertains to an 'age'...not an endless state or condition. Eons are dispensations that have a beginnings and endings. Therefore where the word 'aionios' is in certain passages....these souls are given rewards and punishments that pertain to an 'age'...they are 'age-lasting'.
As far as 'hell' goes.....
'Sheol' and 'Hades' refer to the grave, the abode of the dead, the underworld. They are figurative terms. 'Gehenna' is a physical location where refuse, dead bodies, waste was burned and in olden times, children where sacrificed to pagan gods,..its an accursed place of desolation, ruin, disintegration, death. Jesus knew his audience would know the term as that place of desolation in the valley of hinnnom. Fires there consume the materials and worms eat the rotting flesh there....there is no LIFE there.
'Tartarus'(tartaroo) is from Greek mythology, both a deity and a place in the underworld....a place of punishment as well for various sinners and rebels. It was then adopted by the Book of Enoch and then the writer of 2nd Peter as the place of detainment for fallen angels, etc. All this was later embellished in the english word 'hell' (put in the bible by translators) and meshed with the 'lake of fire' metaphor in the book of Revelation...then with english words 'eternal' and 'everlasting' for 'aion' (age)...to fuel the traditional concept of ECT.
Literally, 'hell' is not in the original text of the Bible. Most traditional imagery and concepts of 'hellfire' are figurative, borrowed from older mythologies and religious traditions, then fused with more figurative language in certain bible translations.
Death means the end of life. Being dead means not being alive any longer. Your problem is your definition of death, which you have twisted to mean "To remain alive forever". That is the exact OPPOSITE of death.
Actually, I can. Paul is talking about the certainty of death for those who remain in sin. It is just like he wrote, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." There is only eternal life in Christ. There is no eternal life in sin.
This means that every living thing died in the flood. Apparently you think that everyone who died in the flood remained alive in the flood. "Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark". But your problem is your false definition of death.
That's baloney and you know it. I can easily explain death in Rev 20:12 and I have many times. You just aren't paying attention, because you never pay attention to anyone that you don't already agree with. I've told you tormentists a thousand times that the reason that the dead are able to stand before the throne is because they have been RESURRECTED!!!! Your false doctrine COMPLETELY FORGETS that the dead are resurrected! Why is that? Why do you deny the resurrection?
The lake of fire is THE SECOND DEATH! Why can't you understand this? The lake of fire is not eternal LIFE being tortured alive, it is DEATH. Why can't you understand this? And if Hell is eternal, why is it thrown into the lake of fire? And if the lake of fire is hell, how is hell thrown into itself? You don't know what you are talking about, and you don't know what the Scriptures say. The wages of sin is death, but you ignore that. The gift of God is eternal life, but you ignore that. The soul who sins shall die, but you ignore that. Whosoever believes in Him shall not PERISH but will have ETERNAL LIFE, but you ignore that. In order to hang onto your false doctrine of torture, you have to ignore all of the rest of Scripture. Why is that? Why do you ignore plain scripture?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
no, it isn't
timmy the tard said:
no, i don't
here's what I believe:
| Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. |