Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Derf
Well-known member
I don't think it takes an ECTist to find things you said that you later disown. My previous post was a case in point. But since you say ECTists put words in your mouth, and you say I'm not an ECTist, maybe what's happening is that we're not putting words in your mouth, but you aren't communicating effectively. I'd like to think I can help you out with that communication problem you're having. You can start by re-reading my previous post and see that I pointed out to you that you disavowed something you stated, and then restated it. If you can't see that as what happened, you're inviting more unflattering epithets.
But as to the definitions of "perish" and "die" in any dictionary, here you go, from the first hit on Google:
Perish--
And:- suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way.
"a great part of his army perished of hunger and disease"
synonyms: die, lose one's life, be killed, fall, expire, meet one's death, be lost, lay down one's life, breathe one's last, pass away, go the way of all flesh, give up the ghost, go to glory[/B], meet one's maker, cross the great divide; More - suffer complete ruin or destruction.
"the old regime had to perish"
synonyms: come to an end, die (away), disappear, vanish, fade, dissolve, evaporate, melt away, wither
"must these hopes perish so soon?" - (of rubber, a foodstuff, or other organic substance) lose its normal qualities; rot or decay.
Die--.
Do you see anything in there that might not fit your definition? Anything? Anything at all? (Just in case you might have missed it, I've added bold formatting to a few things I noticed.) These are common understandings of "perish" and "die". Some allow for total annihilation, and some don't. They don't win the argument for either side, which is what I've been trying to express to you--if that's your total argument, it is weak. And repeating the same thing over and over again without further explanation makes it seem weaker, not stronger.- (of a person, animal, or plant) stop living.
"she died of cancer"
synonyms: pass away, pass on, lose one's life, expire, breathe one's last, meet one's end, meet one's death, lay down one's life, perish, go the way of all flesh, go to one's last resting place, go to meet one's maker, cross the great divide, slip away;
genuineoriginal
New member
Have you ever heard of Evangelical Christianity?
It is one of the mainstream Protestant denominations.
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Evangelicalism, Evangelical Christianity, or Evangelical Protestantism[a] is a worldwide, transdenominational movement within Protestant Christianity maintaining that the essence of the gospel consists in the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ's atonement.[1][2] Evangelicals believe in the centrality of the conversion or "born again" experience in receiving salvation, in the authority of the Bible as God's revelation to humanity, and spreading the Christian message.
It gained great momentum in the 18th and 19th centuries with the Great Awakenings in the United Kingdom and North America. The origins of Evangelicalism are usually traced back to English Methodism, the Moravian Church (in particular the theology of its bishop Nicolaus Zinzendorf), and German Lutheran Pietism. Today, Evangelicals may be found in many of the Protestant branches, as well as in Protestant denominations not subsumed to a specific branch.[3] Among leaders and major figures of the Evangelical Protestant movement were John Wesley, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, Billy Graham, Harold John Ockenga, John Stott and Martyn Lloyd-Jones.
There are an estimated 285 million Evangelicals, comprising 13.1% of the total Christian population
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Evangelicalism, Evangelical Christianity, or Evangelical Protestantism[a] is a worldwide, transdenominational movement within Protestant Christianity maintaining that the essence of the gospel consists in the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ's atonement.[1][2] Evangelicals believe in the centrality of the conversion or "born again" experience in receiving salvation, in the authority of the Bible as God's revelation to humanity, and spreading the Christian message.
It gained great momentum in the 18th and 19th centuries with the Great Awakenings in the United Kingdom and North America. The origins of Evangelicalism are usually traced back to English Methodism, the Moravian Church (in particular the theology of its bishop Nicolaus Zinzendorf), and German Lutheran Pietism. Today, Evangelicals may be found in many of the Protestant branches, as well as in Protestant denominations not subsumed to a specific branch.[3] Among leaders and major figures of the Evangelical Protestant movement were John Wesley, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, Billy Graham, Harold John Ockenga, John Stott and Martyn Lloyd-Jones.
There are an estimated 285 million Evangelicals, comprising 13.1% of the total Christian population
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Here is what Amazon says about it:
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Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology (EDBT) shows how a name, idea, or theme is developed through Scripture. It connects all Old Testament and New Testament content on more than 500 theological ideas. This cover-to-cover examination distinguishes biblical theology from systematic theology, which views what theologians and philosophers have done with a biblical idea.
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Here is what Wikipedia says about it:Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology (EDBT) shows how a name, idea, or theme is developed through Scripture. It connects all Old Testament and New Testament content on more than 500 theological ideas. This cover-to-cover examination distinguishes biblical theology from systematic theology, which views what theologians and philosophers have done with a biblical idea.
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The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology is a Christian reference work published by Baker Books. It was first published in 1984, with a second edition appearing in 2001. The general editor is Walter A. Elwell. It was a successor to Baker's Dictionary of Theology.
John Jefferson Davis describes it as a "first-class piece of evangelical scholarship", while David Dockery calls it an "outstanding contribution to the fields of biblical, historical and systematic theology."
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The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology is a Christian reference work published by Baker Books. It was first published in 1984, with a second edition appearing in 2001. The general editor is Walter A. Elwell. It was a successor to Baker's Dictionary of Theology.
John Jefferson Davis describes it as a "first-class piece of evangelical scholarship", while David Dockery calls it an "outstanding contribution to the fields of biblical, historical and systematic theology."
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The Mormons?
I am not aware of the Mormons getting anything right.
Derf
Well-known member
I know you had a point to make, but to make it, you chose to post a rather large list of verses that required me to narrow the conversation a little. So I wasn't able to address every citation individually. For some of those verses you cited, you focused in on a particular word. In at least one case, that word was "perish".
I didn't have any problem with what you said about "katakausai", so I didn't comment on it. But if you like, I can. Remember that it was cited from a parable, and as a parable, it's possible that the story had been around from before Jesus' time, so Jesus may have just been taking a story and turning it around to use it for something else, rather than communicating about the afterlife. (Giving credit where it's due, I got that idea from you.
If it effectively eliminates any meaning behind a parable, I guess the argument is useful for any parable. But at the same time, if the argument is valid, it effectively eliminates garnering pretty much anything useful from the parable itself.)Timotheos said:
musterion
Well-known member
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
It is an 'opinion' I will have until I see better evidence or reason to change my mind otherwise.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Listen buddy..............
Listen buddy..............
I tire of those who will not take the time to educate themselves and research the facts when engaging in a discussion. That's a key essential to learning and then engaging the dialogue.
Understanding the term 'soul' is essential from a biblical perspective, as already shared....we don't have a 'soul'...we are a 'soul'. Further problems come from Christainity borrowing the 'immortal soul' belief from Greek philosophy, which complicates things from a purely Jewish perspective, and helps maintain the ECT concept, since they assume souls cant ever die (being inherently deathless/immortal), while some scriptures say expressly that souls can DIE. A 'dead' soul is not living, it is no longer a conscious funcitioning being. If one has suffered the 'second death',...that person is disintegrated.
For a better education on the biblical terms here, go here.
I'd guess you need to study up on Mormonism too, while you're at it.
Listen buddy..............
I tire of those who will not take the time to educate themselves and research the facts when engaging in a discussion. That's a key essential to learning and then engaging the dialogue.
Understanding the term 'soul' is essential from a biblical perspective, as already shared....we don't have a 'soul'...we are a 'soul'. Further problems come from Christainity borrowing the 'immortal soul' belief from Greek philosophy, which complicates things from a purely Jewish perspective, and helps maintain the ECT concept, since they assume souls cant ever die (being inherently deathless/immortal), while some scriptures say expressly that souls can DIE. A 'dead' soul is not living, it is no longer a conscious funcitioning being. If one has suffered the 'second death',...that person is disintegrated.
For a better education on the biblical terms here, go here.
I'd guess you need to study up on Mormonism too, while you're at it.
Yep, it's simple.....like most.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Modern day evangelicals supporting 'conditional immortality' as biblical.......
Modern day evangelicals supporting 'conditional immortality' as biblical.......
Judgment and Hell
John Stott's Response:
Excerpts from David L. Edwards and John Stott: Evangelical essentials: a liberal-evangelical dialogue, pp.312-329.
(A good summary in support of 'conditional immortality' by a reputable Christian evangelical leader)
~*~*~
Also by Greg Boyd - The Case for Annhilationism
Modern day evangelicals supporting 'conditional immortality' as biblical.......
Judgment and Hell
John Stott's Response:
Excerpts from David L. Edwards and John Stott: Evangelical essentials: a liberal-evangelical dialogue, pp.312-329.
(A good summary in support of 'conditional immortality' by a reputable Christian evangelical leader)
~*~*~
Also by Greg Boyd - The Case for Annhilationism
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
The fire that consumes......
The fire that consumes......
:thumb:
Edward presents a good case for 'conditional immortality', which satisfies the contrast between 'life' and 'death', and saves 'God' from the injustice, cruelty and insanity of the traditional concept of eternal conscious torment. Since we're talking about discovering what the Bible teaches about the destiny of the wicked, I see more evidence for 'conditional immortality' since in these views there is no tyranny of ECT imposed by Love, since Love does no such thing. Between the options of 'ECT', 'conditional immortality' or 'universalism', the moral and philosophical implications or principles must be thoroughly explored, since conscience, logic and reason are also called for in researching each proposition.
The fire that consumes......
:thumb:
Edward presents a good case for 'conditional immortality', which satisfies the contrast between 'life' and 'death', and saves 'God' from the injustice, cruelty and insanity of the traditional concept of eternal conscious torment. Since we're talking about discovering what the Bible teaches about the destiny of the wicked, I see more evidence for 'conditional immortality' since in these views there is no tyranny of ECT imposed by Love, since Love does no such thing. Between the options of 'ECT', 'conditional immortality' or 'universalism', the moral and philosophical implications or principles must be thoroughly explored, since conscience, logic and reason are also called for in researching each proposition.
Yes, they are dead when they are dead. They are the souls who are dead. You need to understand what the word "soul" means. Research it, if you can. The Greek word for soul is "psyche" and the Hebrew word for soul is "nephesh".
George MacDonald said "You don't have a soul, you are a soul."
If you are alive, you are a living soul. If you are not alive, you are a soul who has died. If you are resurrected from death, you are a soul who is alive once more. If you never die after that, you are a soul who has eternal life. If you die after Christ has resurrected you, you are a soul who has been destroyed. Jesus Christ said "Fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
Sometimes things are not as simple as people think that they are. Sometimes the things people assume are true turn out to not be true. Sometimes people think Revelation 20 says one thing when it really does not.
The answer is right there in Romans 6:23, word for word yet people reject it, assuming that they already know the answer and it is "simple". "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." There it is, the truth. Word for Word. It is there for you to accept or reject, as you wish.
Really? So you are saying that there is a verse in Revelation 20 that says "When bad people die they go to hell where they are tormented alive forever while they are dead"???
I would really like to see that, because if there were such a verse, we could end this debate right now.
In the meantime, there are around 100 verses in the Bible that specifically state that the wicked will perish, they will be destroyed, and they will be no more. TOL Amazes me, the Bible is clear that the wicked will be destroyed, yet people still argue against it for 4500 replies!
If this is your attempt to make "perish" NOT mean "to suffer death", then you did a very poor job of it. "To suffer death" is the very first definition in your list! I'm sorry but if the plain sense of the Bible makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense. "Whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". The plain sense of this is that whoever believes in Christ will not die but will have eternal life. You can argue until you are blue that this doesn't mean what it says, I am merely saying that it does mean what it says. The ONLY reason I keep repeating the truth is because people keep denying the truth. God willing, one day it will sink in.
Absolutely. But the thing that they THINK is simple is that death really means "eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever". It is simple, according to them words mean the opposite of what they say when the words are in the Bible. Death means eternal life in hell, Perish means to never perish, and "the wicked will be no more" means "the wicked will last forever in hell being tortured". Is is simple, ECTism 101, take whatever the Bible says and then believe the exact opposite of that.
Death is separation from life. Starting with the flesh, your spirit will also be separated from God in death.
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Zeke
Well-known member
Conditional immortality still doesn't cover the condition or the life span issue, nor the imbalance that causes for equal justice for all if its one and done, if this is more than just a temporal place of Soul experience in duality then one should pull the plug before the age of responsibility starts ticking.
Hell is thinking this blip in the realm of existence is all set in stone for eternity, You're persona is one and done for you when you either wake up or exit the body, yet it will resurrect in someone else to keep the play on going until more wake up and look behind the facade it will just keep hypnotizing the Soul through deceptions of love or hate acted out in this world.
But I am saved and your not so I am special kind of ignorant taunting you with threats of eternal punishment because I read it in a book of spells, while under a spell.
Hell is thinking this blip in the realm of existence is all set in stone for eternity, You're persona is one and done for you when you either wake up or exit the body, yet it will resurrect in someone else to keep the play on going until more wake up and look behind the facade it will just keep hypnotizing the Soul through deceptions of love or hate acted out in this world.
But I am saved and your not so I am special kind of ignorant taunting you with threats of eternal punishment because I read it in a book of spells, while under a spell.