Look at Matthew 10:28, bro!
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Look at Matthew 10:28, bro!
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Bringing the sanity back
Bringing the sanity back
Then it sounds we have a very petty, human-like volatile characterization of 'God' here. You cant 'humanize' what is infinite, let alone assume this 'god' (little case intended since it demeans 'God') is gonna inflict infinite punishment or torment on souls for sins committed during one human lifetime. (Overkill anyone?) ECT is insane, and to assume 'God' (again humanized and vilified as a 'punisher') gloats over roasting sinners forever in a lake of fire is cruelty at its worst.
Also the principle of karma enters in here, since one only reaps what he sows, no more or less, so that any consequence or duration of suffering/punishment is only proportional to the quality or severity of the sin committed, while justice and mercy all weigh in, all things being ultimately governed by love and wisdom. Hence the infinite love of God is always willing the good, eternal survival, well-being, prosperity of souls, using all means (sin/consequences) to bring the soul to repentance. Such is Love's will.
Bringing the sanity back
Then it sounds we have a very petty, human-like volatile characterization of 'God' here. You cant 'humanize' what is infinite, let alone assume this 'god' (little case intended since it demeans 'God') is gonna inflict infinite punishment or torment on souls for sins committed during one human lifetime. (Overkill anyone?) ECT is insane, and to assume 'God' (again humanized and vilified as a 'punisher') gloats over roasting sinners forever in a lake of fire is cruelty at its worst.
Also the principle of karma enters in here, since one only reaps what he sows, no more or less, so that any consequence or duration of suffering/punishment is only proportional to the quality or severity of the sin committed, while justice and mercy all weigh in, all things being ultimately governed by love and wisdom. Hence the infinite love of God is always willing the good, eternal survival, well-being, prosperity of souls, using all means (sin/consequences) to bring the soul to repentance. Such is Love's will.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
it's all we have to work with, isn't it?
genuineoriginal
New member
There are two resurrections, one at the start of the thousand year reign, the other afterwards at the Judgment.
Revelation 20:4-6 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. |
After the thousand years, the rest of the dead are resurrected for the Judgment.
Revelation 20:12 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. |
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
The 'process' of death explored..............
The 'process' of death explored..............
Since the Bible does not give intimate details on the process of 'destruction' of souls but by way of figurative speech (open to interpretation)...all you can do is speculate beyond any literal descriptions. Beyond definitions of 'death' (being apparent by the standard definition of the term) or 'illusive' in other ways,....if a soul is 'dead',...well...they are pretty much 'dead'. Again we contend about what it means to be 'dead' or undergo 'the second death'...in contrast to life,...and all you have in the fore, is to consider the constrasting difference, and then speculate over what the 'condition' is like. I've used the term 'dis-integration' of the soul(personality) as a 'descript' of the process of what souls may undergo who suffer the 'second death',....and it includes the expiration of that living soul as a functioning personality,....it perishes losing its life-potential.
From an extra-biblical view, but drawing upon the general premise of 'soul-death' and 'conditional immortality', The Urantia Papers give an insightful and interesting description of this 'disintegration' process for those souls who do not choose eternal survival(life),...they are basically disintegrated, - wiped out as a living conscious personalities,...they truly expire.
The 'process' of death explored..............
Since the Bible does not give intimate details on the process of 'destruction' of souls but by way of figurative speech (open to interpretation)...all you can do is speculate beyond any literal descriptions. Beyond definitions of 'death' (being apparent by the standard definition of the term) or 'illusive' in other ways,....if a soul is 'dead',...well...they are pretty much 'dead'. Again we contend about what it means to be 'dead' or undergo 'the second death'...in contrast to life,...and all you have in the fore, is to consider the constrasting difference, and then speculate over what the 'condition' is like. I've used the term 'dis-integration' of the soul(personality) as a 'descript' of the process of what souls may undergo who suffer the 'second death',....and it includes the expiration of that living soul as a functioning personality,....it perishes losing its life-potential.
From an extra-biblical view, but drawing upon the general premise of 'soul-death' and 'conditional immortality', The Urantia Papers give an insightful and interesting description of this 'disintegration' process for those souls who do not choose eternal survival(life),...they are basically disintegrated, - wiped out as a living conscious personalities,...they truly expire.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
I respect an assumed 'biblical' context, but its still limited......
I respect an assumed 'biblical' context, but its still limited......
Yes, from a 'biblical perspective', but ECT is still insane and unbecoming of a God of love and wisdom, since Love's will is not to eternally torment or inflict suffering, but to save, redeem, restore and encourage life. Consider Infinite LOVE.
Also while this thread is respectfully exploring what a 'biblical' view is, figurative terms are still debated and translated differently by bible believers. I further propose and use in my analysis, knowledge from other religious traditions and schools of thought on the subject to broaden and give a more inclusive comprehensive over-view and consideration of the subject and its possibilities. In the larger universal picture then, if you're just gonna use the Bible alone, you limit yourself to its cultural-context and terms, to the theological limits imposed by its bounderies. I don't in my theology. Since some are limiting their view to what might be defined as a 'biblical' view (again open to so much subjectivity), you still have contending parties and views of eschatology here, that you must finally fall back on the faculties of your own logic, reason, conscience, intelligence and common sense when considering moral principle and ethical conduct, on how Goodness would judge with both justice AND mercy in any situation, in order to prosper Love's will and God's plan for all. Remember what is Love's will? Would Love condemn a soul to an eternal state of suffering or torment with no relief ever? NO. That is not Love. So you are forced to expand your own reasoning to consider a better way for divine wisdom to conduct itself. My sharings on the subject endeavor to do just that.
~*~*~
(can anyone let me know if enlargening the text size here to "3" is ok? - I recall some speaking that the default size is a bit small. Let me know if "3" is just right. thanks!
)
I respect an assumed 'biblical' context, but its still limited......
Yes, from a 'biblical perspective', but ECT is still insane and unbecoming of a God of love and wisdom, since Love's will is not to eternally torment or inflict suffering, but to save, redeem, restore and encourage life. Consider Infinite LOVE.
Also while this thread is respectfully exploring what a 'biblical' view is, figurative terms are still debated and translated differently by bible believers. I further propose and use in my analysis, knowledge from other religious traditions and schools of thought on the subject to broaden and give a more inclusive comprehensive over-view and consideration of the subject and its possibilities. In the larger universal picture then, if you're just gonna use the Bible alone, you limit yourself to its cultural-context and terms, to the theological limits imposed by its bounderies. I don't in my theology. Since some are limiting their view to what might be defined as a 'biblical' view (again open to so much subjectivity), you still have contending parties and views of eschatology here, that you must finally fall back on the faculties of your own logic, reason, conscience, intelligence and common sense when considering moral principle and ethical conduct, on how Goodness would judge with both justice AND mercy in any situation, in order to prosper Love's will and God's plan for all. Remember what is Love's will? Would Love condemn a soul to an eternal state of suffering or torment with no relief ever? NO. That is not Love. So you are forced to expand your own reasoning to consider a better way for divine wisdom to conduct itself. My sharings on the subject endeavor to do just that.
~*~*~
(can anyone let me know if enlargening the text size here to "3" is ok? - I recall some speaking that the default size is a bit small. Let me know if "3" is just right. thanks!
)They are resurrected from death in order to stand before Christ for judgment.
2 Corinthians 5:10
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
which is, of course, nothing more than your opinion
genuineoriginal
New member
They can't be resurrected unless they are "really" dead.
How dead do you want them to be?
No (and genuineoriginal already pointed this out), People who are dead really are dead until they are resurrected by God, and then they are really alive. If they go to their second death, then they are really dead once more.
Have you read the Bible, ever?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
genuineoriginal
New member
What do you think a soul is, as used in the Bible?
genuineoriginal
New member
If you don't know what the Bible is referring to when it uses the word "soul", how will you understand what it says about souls?
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“Soul” and “Spirit”—What Do These Terms Really Mean?
When writing about the soul, the Bible writers used the Hebrew word neʹphesh or the Greek word psy·kheʹ. These two words occur well over 800 times in the Scriptures, and the New World Translation renders them “soul,” either in the main text or in footnotes. When you examine the way “soul” or “souls” is used in the Bible, it becomes evident that this word basically refers to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has.
The soul and the spirit are not the same. The body needs the spirit in much the same way as a radio needs electricity—in order to function. To illustrate this further, think of a portable radio. When you put batteries in a portable radio and turn it on, the electricity stored in the batteries brings the radio to life, so to speak. Without batteries, however, the radio is dead. So is another kind of radio when it is unplugged from an electric outlet. Similarly, the spirit is the force that brings our body to life. Also, like electricity, the spirit has no feeling and cannot think. It is an impersonal force. But without that spirit, or life-force, our bodies “die and return to the dust” as the psalmist stated.
_____
“Soul” and “Spirit”—What Do These Terms Really Mean?
When writing about the soul, the Bible writers used the Hebrew word neʹphesh or the Greek word psy·kheʹ. These two words occur well over 800 times in the Scriptures, and the New World Translation renders them “soul,” either in the main text or in footnotes. When you examine the way “soul” or “souls” is used in the Bible, it becomes evident that this word basically refers to (1) people, (2) animals, or (3) the life that a person or an animal has.
The soul and the spirit are not the same. The body needs the spirit in much the same way as a radio needs electricity—in order to function. To illustrate this further, think of a portable radio. When you put batteries in a portable radio and turn it on, the electricity stored in the batteries brings the radio to life, so to speak. Without batteries, however, the radio is dead. So is another kind of radio when it is unplugged from an electric outlet. Similarly, the spirit is the force that brings our body to life. Also, like electricity, the spirit has no feeling and cannot think. It is an impersonal force. But without that spirit, or life-force, our bodies “die and return to the dust” as the psalmist stated.
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genuineoriginal
New member
You seem to have a different idea of what a soul is.
Please share.
I am not a Jehovah Witness, but will admit that they get some things right that most mainstream denominations get wrong.
A Biblical understanding of the soul happens to be one of them.
genuineoriginal
New member
Here is more information about soul from an Evangelical viewpoint.
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Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Soul
The Old Testament. The Hebrew word so rendered is nepes [v,p,n]. It appears 755 times in the Old Testament. The King James Version uses 42 different English terms to translate it. The two most common renderings are "soul" (428 times) and "life" (117 times). It is the synchronic use of nepes [v,p,n] that determines its meaning rather than the diachronic. Hebrew is inclined to use one and the same word for a variety of functions that are labeled with distinct words in English.
Nepes [v,p,n] in the Old Testament is never the "immortal soul" but simply the life principle or living being. Such is observable in Genesis 1:20, 21, 24, where the qualified (living) nepes [v,p,n] refers to animals and is rendered "living creatures." The same Hebrew term is then applied to the creation of humankind in Genesis 2:7, where dust is vitalized by the breath of God and becomes a "living being." Thus, human being shares soul with the animals. It is the breath of God that makes the lifeless dust a "living being"person.
Frequently in the Old Testament nepes [v,p,n] designates the individual ( Lev 17:10 ; 23:30 ). In its plural form it indicates a number of individuals such as Abraham's party ( Gen 12:5 ), the remnant left behind in Judah ( Jer 43:6 ), and the offspring of Leah ( Gen 46:15 ).
. . .
Clearly, then, in the Old Testament a mortal is a living soul rather than having a soul. Instead of splitting a person into two or three parts, Hebrew thought sees a unified being, but one that is profoundly complex, a psychophysical being.
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Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Soul
The Old Testament. The Hebrew word so rendered is nepes [v,p,n]. It appears 755 times in the Old Testament. The King James Version uses 42 different English terms to translate it. The two most common renderings are "soul" (428 times) and "life" (117 times). It is the synchronic use of nepes [v,p,n] that determines its meaning rather than the diachronic. Hebrew is inclined to use one and the same word for a variety of functions that are labeled with distinct words in English.
Nepes [v,p,n] in the Old Testament is never the "immortal soul" but simply the life principle or living being. Such is observable in Genesis 1:20, 21, 24, where the qualified (living) nepes [v,p,n] refers to animals and is rendered "living creatures." The same Hebrew term is then applied to the creation of humankind in Genesis 2:7, where dust is vitalized by the breath of God and becomes a "living being." Thus, human being shares soul with the animals. It is the breath of God that makes the lifeless dust a "living being"person.
Frequently in the Old Testament nepes [v,p,n] designates the individual ( Lev 17:10 ; 23:30 ). In its plural form it indicates a number of individuals such as Abraham's party ( Gen 12:5 ), the remnant left behind in Judah ( Jer 43:6 ), and the offspring of Leah ( Gen 46:15 ).
. . .
Clearly, then, in the Old Testament a mortal is a living soul rather than having a soul. Instead of splitting a person into two or three parts, Hebrew thought sees a unified being, but one that is profoundly complex, a psychophysical being.
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