Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Tambora]

You are reading your doctrine into scripture rather than reading it with an open mind.

I tire when folks say things like this.
For I could just as easily say the same about you.

It doesn't contribute or settle a darn thing.

It is not rocket science to understand that smoke rises when something burns.

It sure isn't rocket science to know that.
And it's not rocket science to know that if there is no perpetual fuel for the fire to burn, the fire would be quenched, and there would be no perpetual smoke.

But scripture tells us that the fire will never be quenched, and therefore the smoke will be continual.
Hence, the fuel does not cease to exist.

And scripture plainly says that the continual smoke that ascends stems from torment, not a lack of torment.

 

[Timotheos]

And scripture plainly says that the continual smoke that ascends stems from torment, not a lack of torment.

How can smoke rise from torment? Smoke doesn't rise from torment. Smoke rises from fire. Fire burns things up. The smoke rises. The term refers to the complete destruction of what is burned up. Which is exactly what the rest of the Bible teaches.

 

[Timotheos]

Thou wast in Eden, strengthening Adam's hand to sin.

What does this mean? How does this prove that there is ECT?
Ezekiel 28:13 says "You were in Eden", is this the scripture reference you are thinking of? If you read on Ezekiel 28:16 says "I destroyed you", verse 18 says, "I brought fire out...it consumed you" and "I turned you to ashes", verse 19 says "you have come to a dreadful end and will be no more forever."

This proves that the penalty for the King of Tyre (and prophetically, Satan) is complete destruction, not ECT.

 

[Totton Linnet]

If the serpent had not decieved Adam into believing that God's punishment would not happen as God said it would happen would Adam have sinned?

Your deception is the same.

 

[Timotheos]

If the serpent had not decieved Adam into believing that God's punishment would not happen as God said it would happen would Adam have sinned?

Your deception is the same.

Tell me more.

What is it that I say the penalty for sin is, What did the snake say, and what did God say, and what do you say?

 

[Timotheos]

If the serpent had not decieved Adam into believing that God's punishment would not happen as God said it would happen would Adam have sinned?

Your deception is the same.

No sir, I am afraid that you have been deceived by the serpent.

I believe that the wages of sin is death, which is what the Bible says.
God said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit.
The serpent said they wouldn't die,

And you are saying the wages of sin is not death, but eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever.

Your deception is the same as the serpent's.

 

[Timotheos]

But my view is the same as Jesus Christ's who said in Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

He didn't say 'unless you repent you will will be burned alive in hell forever after you die'.

 

[Aimiel]

How can smoke rise from torment? Smoke doesn't rise from torment. Smoke rises from fire. Fire burns things up. The smoke rises. The term refers to the complete destruction of what is burned up. Which is exactly what the rest of the Bible teaches.

Were that the case: The Lord might more clearly have said: "The smoke from their destruction," rather than torment, don't you think? :think:

 

[Timotheos]

Were that the case: The Lord might more clearly have said: "The smoke from their destruction," rather than torment, don't you think? :think:

The language refers to the destruction of Sodom and Gemorrah.

 

[Aimiel]

The language refers to the destruction of Sodom and Gemorrah.

Methinks thou dost surely jest. :hammer:

 

[Timotheos]

Methinks thou dost surely jest. :hammer:

You could look some of this stuff up in commentaries for yourself, rather than relying on me to do it for you.
"This language is probably derived from the account of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah" Barnes' notes on the Bible. Barnes is a believer in ECT and he says this. This comes from your own people.

And put away the hammer before you hurt yourself. It is not saying anything about me.

 

[Aimiel]

How can smoke rise from torment? Smoke doesn't rise from torment. Smoke rises from fire. Fire burns things up. The smoke rises. The term refers to the complete destruction of what is burned up. Which is exactly what the rest of the Bible teaches.

Eternal torment is all that could possibly fulfill this Scripture:

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Smoke dissipates. In order for it to ascend for ever and ever, it must be from torment in flames that continue for ever and ever. They have no rest. Those who are destroyed would be resting, right? So much for your theories.

 

[Timotheos]

Eternal torment is all that could possibly fulfill this Scripture:

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

They have no rest. Those who are destroyed would be resting, right? So much for your theories.

Wrong. Those who are destroyed are not resting. They have been destroyed, which is absolutely different from resting.

 

[Timotheos]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that the penalty is destruction.

 

[Aimiel]

From Barnes' notes on The Bible:

And they have no rest day nor night - "Day and night" include all time; and hence, the phrase is used to denote perpetuity - "always." The meaning here is, that they never have any rest - any interval of pain. This is stated as a circumstance strongly expressive of the severity of their torment. Here, rest comes to the sufferer. The prisoner in his cell lies down on his bed, though hard, and sleeps; the overworked slave has also intervals of sleep; the eyes of the mourner are locked in repose, and for moments, if not hours, he forgets his sorrows; no pain that we endure on earth can be so certain and prolonged that nature will not, sooner or later, find the luxury of sleep, or will find rest in the grave. But it will be one of the bitterest ingredients in the cup of woe, in the world of despair, that this luxury will be denied forever, and that they who enter that gloomy prison sleep no more, never know the respite of a moment, never even lose the consciousness of their heavy doom. Oh how different from the condition of sufferers here! And oh how sad and strange that any of our race will persevere in sin, and go down to those unmitigated and unending sorrows!

 

[Aimiel]

Wrong. Those who are destroyed are not resting. They have been destroyed, which is absolutely different from resting.

They are described as having no rest. Their torment must continue forever in order for the smoke of their torment to be seen ascending forever. Are you reading or just denying what it says?

 

[Timotheos]

The smoke of their torment - Still an allusion to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha.

from Clarke's commentary on the Bible.

Yes, I am aware that Barnes believes in ECT. That is what makes him an effective witness for my side. If those who agree with you don't even agree with you on this passage...

 

[Aimiel]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that the penalty is destruction.

In order for them to continually be destroyed forever, they must be tormented by that destruction forever. They are not non-existent, or God would have never said anything about their torment continuing forever. He knows what will happen. Take His Word for it, rather than trying to defend what you imagine might happen.

 

[Aimiel]

The smoke of their torment - Still an allusion to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha.

from Clarke's commentary on the Bible.

Yes, I am aware that Barnes believes in ECT. That is what makes him an effective witness for my side. If those who agree with you don't even agree with you on this passage...

If you want to find two people who agree on every Scripture, you'll have to go to Heaven... there are no two on this earth who agree on the meaning of every Scripture. If they do, they're simple-minded. God designed His Word to cause contention. He wants us to talk about His Word and make Him ever more famous.

 

[Timotheos]

They are described as having no rest. Their torment must continue forever in order for the smoke of their torment to be seen ascending forever. Are you reading or just denying what it says?

I do not grab my doctrine from the BOR and then force that doctrine onto the rest of the Bible, and you should not either.
Clear passages of the Bible should be used to interpret unclear passages, not the other way around. We've been in the BOR long enough. Can you defend your doctrine using the other 65 books of the Bible? Or better still, why not read the other 65 books first and then determine your doctrine from them?