That's true, it seems like no two people interpret the BOR the same way, which is why it is important to not derive your doctrine solely from the BOR.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
That's true, it seems like no two people interpret the BOR the same way, which is why it is important to not derive your doctrine solely from the BOR.
I say unto you My friends be not afraid of them that kill the body and after that hath no more that they can do. But I will tell you who to fear, fear Him which after He hath killed hath power to cast into hell, yea, I say unto you fear Him.
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna) Matthew 10:28
This shows what happens to those who are cast into hell (Gehenna), Body and Soul are destroyed there. They are not kept alive forever in torment.
You can't take Matt. 10.28 and pit it against Lu. 12.5. that is the tactics of the deciever.
There are so many verses in the Bible that tell us the fate of the wicked is to perish, not live forever in hell being tormented alive forever while they are dead.
Take John 3:16, probably the most familiar verse in the Bible:
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.
Since there are so many verses that all say the wicked perish, and there aren't any verses in the Bible that say the wicked go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever while they are dead, why don't you guys believe what the Bible says, instead of arguing against it?
Take John 3:16, probably the most familiar verse in the Bible:
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.
Since there are so many verses that all say the wicked perish, and there aren't any verses in the Bible that say the wicked go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever while they are dead, why don't you guys believe what the Bible says, instead of arguing against it?
I'm not, I'm saying they agree. If YOU think they disagree, then you have a problem with your doctrine. The problem is - your doctrine is false.
Read Matthew 10:28, it says that Body and Soul can be destroyed in hell. Read Luke 12:5 "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
Matthew 10:28 tells you exactly why you should fear him. Because he has teh power to destroy both body and soul in hell. These verses work together to say the same thing. I am not pitting one verse against another. I believe both. You don't.
Why don't you give up your false doctrine of ECT and just believe what the Bible says?
In John 5:24, Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." He didn't say the penalty was eternal life in torment. He said whoever believes him has passed from DEATH to LIFE. There are two choices, according to Jesus Christ, Death or Life. Not Life and life in hell being tormented.
Why don't you give up your false doctrine of ECT and just believe what Jesus Christ said?
Why don't you give up your false doctrine of ECT and just believe what Jesus Christ said?
You can't take Jo.5.24. and pit it against Lu.12, 5 or Mtt. 25. where the wicked depart into everlasting punishment. If you use scripture like that you are a deciever.
I'm not pitting scriptures against each other. Matthew 25:46 says they go to eternal punishment. I believe that they do. Death is a form of punishment and it is eternal. Matthew 25:46 doesn't say they go off to eternal torment. All of these verses work together to prove that the penalty for sin is death, not eternal conscious torment.
Please stop calling me a deceiver. Obviously I'm not a deceiver, that is mere name calling, and doesn't prove anything.
More scripture!
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.
I am calling you a deciever because you are deliberately using deception, pitting one scripture against another.
In the parable of the rich man and dives he lifted up his eyes in torment, he was told there was a gulf set between him and the beggar which could not be passed over. Do you think Jesus was using a lie to teach the truth?
In the parable of the rich man and dives he lifted up his eyes in torment, he was told there was a gulf set between him and the beggar which could not be passed over. Do you think Jesus was using a lie to teach the truth?
I believe that Jesus used a parable to teach the truth.
I am not pitting one scripture against another. All of those scriptures are true, you are just confused about this doctrine, because you have been misled.
Now, I've asked you nicely to stop the name calling. This is your last warning. Also, you are spelling it wrong. It's deceiver, not deciever.
Yes it is biblical, Jesus taught it.
Luke 16:20-31
King James Version (KJV)
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luke 16:20-31
King James Version (KJV)
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Sorry, you are a deceiver not a deciever.
That's a parable, not a travel description of an actual place. Do you actually believe everyone goes to hell, and the good are separated from the bad by a canyon? Besides, this thread is about the final punishment, and the rich man's brothers were still alive, so this parable can't be about the final punishment. Also, this parable says nothing about eternal torment.
I suggest that you go back over this thread, and read all of the scripture I posted in defense of my position. There is not one verse in the entire Bible that says the wicked go to hell when they die where they are tomented alive forever while they are dead. But there is a ton of scripture that supports the doctrine that the wages of sin is death.
Thanks for posting on my thread.
I asked you to stop. I've reported you.
You don't believe the parable? It's not a parable. Specific persons are named. Think you may want to look at Revelation 20:11-15
Revelation 20:11-15
King James Version (KJV)
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And the third angel followed them saying with a loud voice "if any man worship the beast and his image and recieve his mark on his forehead on in his hand the same shall drink of the wrath of God which is poured without mixture into the cup of His indignation. An he shall be tormented with fire an brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night who worship the beast and his image and whosoever recieveth the mark of his name.
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day or night who worship the beast and his image and whosoever recieveth the mark of his name.
So you want justice eh? revenge, what punishment should I have for telling the truth? and you a mere man....God has been outraged by murders and witchcraft these long centuries.
Say now that the bible does not say the wicked will not be tormented for ever and ever.