Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

Smoke ascending for ever and ever... torment continuing for ever and ever... that proves it, indeed. Do you deny that Scripture states that?It doesn't say, "Smoke of their destruction," though, does it? :think:

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.No, I admit they are going to their death. Souls are being tormented for ever and ever. That isn't life. Life is growth. Life is change. Life is learning. Life is beautiful. Look it up. Life is great. The first death is an end to our body. The Second Death is torment in the Lake of Fire. The Bible says so. It doesn't say: "They will be eliminated," It says they will be tormented for ever and ever. Please believe what It says. The Bible doesn't lie.

I typed out a long reply to this, and the computer lost it.

The bible does say that the wicked will be eliminated. Read Psalm 37:10
a little while, and the wicked will be no more;
though you look for them, they will not be found.

The Bible says that the lake of fire is the second death. The Bible doesn't say the second death is torment in the lake of fire. Why do you think it says the lake of fire is the second death? It is because the lake of fire is the second death. The first death is when a person dies. Then they are resurrected on Judgment Day, then they go to their second death. They have already died once, the second death is the final death.

Please believe what the Bible says, as you say, it doesn't lie. The wicked perish and are no more.

 

[Tambora]

Death is separation, not cessation, in Scripture.

Yes.
"Contrast" may even be a better word to use than "separation", although both have the same concept and fit just as well.

Dead is in contrast to not dead.

Perished is in contrast to not perished.

Lost is in contrast to not lost.

Not saved is in contrast to saved.

Destroyed is in contrast to not destroyed.

Condemned is in contrast to not condemned.

etc.
etc.
etc.

All listed as red are essentially the same group of folks, and all listed as green are essentially the same group of folks.
And none of them mean "annihilation/ceased to exist".

Why don't you look up John 3:16 and tell me what it says? "All who believe in Him will not perish, but will have eternal life."

John 3 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


"Perish" is the Greek verb ἀπόληται. And is translated in several ways: perish, lost, lose, die, etc.

2 Peter 3 KJV
(6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
​

Obviously, the world still existed.

Luke 19 KJV
(10) For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
​

Obviously, Christ did not come to seek and to save that which no longer existed.

John 18 KJV
(14) Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.
​

Obviously, He did not cease to exist.


Your exegesis of the word ἀπόληται fails.

 

[Aimiel]

I typed out a long reply to this, and the computer lost it.

I'm sorry that happened. It's happened to me far too many times to count.

The bible does say that the wicked will be eliminated. Read Psalm 37:10
a little while, and the wicked will be no more;
though you look for them, they will not be found.

Well, I imagine they won'd be found, in the whole New Earth or New Heaven.

The Bible says that the lake of fire is the second death. The Bible doesn't say the second death is torment in the lake of fire. Why do you think it says the lake of fire is the second death? It is because the lake of fire is the second death. The first death is when a person dies. Then they are resurrected on Judgment Day, then they go to their second death. They have already died once, the second death is the final death.

The Bible says that they are cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death: to be tormented as Scripture explicitly states, for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

The second death hurts. The first one doesn't hurt. It's just a shadow of the torment that is coming in the Lake of Fire (Second Death).

Please believe what the Bible says, as you say, it doesn't lie. The wicked perish and are no more.

I do believe what The Bible says:

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

No rest. Sorry, but if they were poofed out of existence they would be resting. God is Just. He doesn't give the wicked rest. He gives them ECT.

 

[Tambora]

The Scripture also says that smoke ascends from their torment forever. Where there is smoke: there is fire. The fire does not go out. The torment does not cease. The smoke from the fire of their torment is eternally rising. It isn't going to change just because you don't like it. Scripture says it. Stop trying to deny it means what it says. You're in denial. That isn't healthy.

Exactly.

No fuel, no fire, no smoke.


Smoke ascending is a common descriptive way of describing the cries (prayers) of mankind to God throughout scripture.

No cries, no smoke.

The only way for the smoke to continually ascend is if the cries are continual.

 

[Timotheos]

John 3 KJV
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


"Perish" is the Greek verb ἀπόληται. And is translated in several ways: perish, lost, lose, die, etc.

2 Peter 3 KJV
(6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
​

Obviously, the world still existed.

Luke 19 KJV
(10) For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
​

Obviously, Christ did not come to seek and to save that which no longer existed.

John 18 KJV
(14) Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.
​

Obviously, He did not cease to exist.


Your exegesis of the word ἀπόληται fails.

My exegesis of the word ἀπόληται does not fail, for this reason.
You can't take the meaning of a word from one context, and apply that willy-nilly to the word in a different context. D.A. Carson calls this the fallacy of "Illlegitament Totality Transfer". Look at the context ofἀπόληται in John 3:16. οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

ἀπόληται (which means "perish" whether or not that produces problems for your pet doctrine) is contrasted with the phrase ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον (have eternal life). So clearly Jesus Christ is saying there are two choices. Perish (ἀπόληται) or have eternal life (ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον). Anyone that has eternal life will not perish, and anyone that perishes does not have eternal life.

Now look at Caiphais words. Did he intend to say that Jesus would die or not? He meant what he said. He knew that perish means to kill. It was not his intention to not cause Jesus to perish. It wasn't his intention to "lose" Jesus Christ. As a matter of fact, whenever the word is used of a person in the gospels, it means the person will die.

Peter meant what he said too. Everyone in the world, except for Noah and his family perished, they died. This doesn't support your use of apoletai to mean "not quite perished at all".

And Jesus Christ, knowing the fate of the lost is to perish, came to seek and to save those who are perishing. Paul even says "The Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is the power of God to those of us who are being saved."

Your exegesis fails, and you claimed victory a little too soon. But I am impressed that you also can read greek, although your attraction to the doctine of ECT colors your interpretation a little.

If you go to a website called Rethinking hell, (all one word) you can read Dr. Glenn Peoples' analysis of the words apollumi and apoletai.

 

[Tambora]

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Then:

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


And a thousand years later, we find that the beast and false prophet have not been anihilated in the lake of fire, but are still there:


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

hopou kai to thērion kai ho pseudoprophētēs- where are also the beast and the false prophet

:up:

 

[Timotheos]

I'm sorry that happened. It's happened to me far too many times to count.Well, I imagine they won'd be found, in the whole New Earth or New Heaven.The Bible says that they are cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death: to be tormented as Scripture explicitly states, for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

The second death hurts. The first one doesn't hurt. It's just a shadow of the torment that is coming in the Lake of Fire (Second Death). I do believe what The Bible says:

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

No rest. Sorry, but if they were poofed out of existence they would be resting. God is Just. He doesn't give the wicked rest. He gives them ECT.

Okay, I can see that there is no gettting past your assumption that there is ECT, so I won't try with you any longer. You are fully committed to your doctrine. Goodbye, and I hope that you are blessed by God forever.

 

[Timotheos]

Exactly.

No fuel, no fire, no smoke.


Smoke ascending is a common descriptive way of describing the cries (prayers) of mankind to God throughout scripture.

No cries, no smoke.

The only way for the smoke to continually ascend is if the cries are continual.

I don't think you are listening to a thing I'm saying. I'm not saying there is no fire. I am saying that this fire does what fire does. It burns up the wicked, and the smoke of this burning rises forever. This language indicates complete destruction. The smoke of the destruction of Edom rises forever, This is what Isaiah said. But we know that Edom was completely destroyed. You have to understand the language of Revelation.

 

[Aimiel]

The only way for the smoke to continually ascend is if the cries are continual.

:thumb:

A very logical conclusion. :chuckle:

 

[Aimiel]

Okay, I can see that there is no gettting past your assumption that there is ECT, so I won't try with you any longer. You are fully committed to your doctrine. Goodbye, and I hope that you are blessed by God forever.

Amen... I am. I do hope that one day you might come to understand more Truth than you've come to grips with so far. *waves bye-bye*

 

[Tambora]

You can't take the meaning of a word from one context, and apply that willy-nilly to the word in a different context. D.A. Carson calls this the fallacy of "Illlegitament Totality Transfer". Look at the context ofἀπόληται in John 3:16. οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

ἀπόληται (which means "perish" whether or not that produces problems for your pet doctrine) is contrasted with the phrase ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον (have eternal life). So clearly Jesus Christ is saying there are two choices. Perish (ἀπόληται) or have eternal life (ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον). Anyone that has eternal life will not perish, and anyone that perishes does not have eternal life.

Yep, it is a contrast, which is exactly what I pointed out in my post.
And in none of the contrasts did it mean that one side of the contrast meant "cease to exist".

Now look at Caiphais words. Did he intend to say that Jesus would die or not? He meant what he said.

He certainly did mean what he said.
The problem for you is that when he said Jesus should die (ἀπόληται) , it did not mean that Jesus would cease to exist.

Peter meant what he said too. Everyone in the world, except for Noah and his family perished, they died. This doesn't support your use of apoletai to mean "not quite perished at all".

Yep, Peter meant what he said ---- that the world perished (ἀπόληται). It did not mean that the world ceased to exist.

And Jesus Christ, knowing the fate of the lost is to perish, came to seek and to save those who are perishing.

Yep, Jesus meant what He said too, to save the lost (ἀπόληται). What he did not mean was that He came to save those that had ceased to exist.

Your exegesis fails

No, it doesn't. As shown by the verses I quoted using the word ἀπόληται, none of them is talking about something that no longer exists.

But I am impressed that you also can read greek,

And Hebrew also.

If you go to a website called Rethinking hell, (all one word) you can read Dr. Glenn Peoples' analysis of the words apollumi and apoletai.

Don't need to. I already know what the words are, and what they mean.

And sites could just as easily be given that agree that ἀπόληται does not mean "cease to exist".

So link dropping isn't going to accomplish much.

Especially when scripture can be produced that show that ἀπόληται obviously does not mean "cease to exist".

 

[Timotheos]

Amen... I am. I do hope that one day you might come to understand more Truth than you've come to grips with so far. *waves bye-bye*

I hope you stick around, you may disagree, but come to learn something new anyway. Life is dull if we are just around those who think exactly like we do.

Anyway, I've just scratched the surface, there are at least a hundred bible passages that each prove that the wicked perish and are no more and are not tormented alive forever when they are dead.

For insistance:
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The greek prefix kata means down. Completely burned down, like a house is burned down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is that the wicked will be completely destroyed. And as Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked will be destroyed by burning, this will happen when Jesus returns on Judgment Day at the end of the age.

 

[Timotheos]

Don't need to. I already know what the words are, and what they mean.

That's okay, I knew that you wouldn't go there. Perhaps if anyone else is reading this, and wants to know more they will go there.
God Bless

 

[Tambora]

Exactly.

No fuel, no fire, no smoke.


Smoke ascending is a common descriptive way of describing the cries (prayers) of mankind to God throughout scripture.

No cries, no smoke.

The only way for the smoke to continually ascend is if the cries are continual.

I don't think you are listening to a thing I'm saying.

I don't think you are understanding a thing I'm saying.

If you knew scripture at all, then you would know that the cries (prayers) of the people were represented by ascending smoke (as the altar of incense describes).

But when judgment comes, those cries are useless and will no longer have any chance of being answered.
Just as the rich man cried out, but his cries were not answered (Luke 16:19-31).

For those that know scripture, it is not rocket science to figure out what the continual ascending smoke of torment is.

 

[freelight]

Logic is not the only 'tool' we use, there is more.....

Logic is not the only 'tool' we use, there is more.....

Continuing from my previous post here

Originally Posted by freelight :

Correct,......for it would seem insane for a God of justice and mercy to detain or hold living beings FOREVER in a state of eternal torment and suffering to no end or resolve, - such would be sadistic, illogical, barbaric, unbecoming of a God of goodness.

Tambora wrote:

"Logic" doesn't really have anything to do with it.
If you want to simply rely on logic, would it not be logical for a God of justice and mercy to forgive and fix everyone, rather than just some and not others?

There is more than just mere 'logic' to employ when judging actions which are 'supposed' to be Gods, for we have 'reason', 'common sense', 'intelligence', 'intuitive wisdom', 'revelation', etc. I've never endorsed using 'logic' alone, in fact as more of a mystic, I share more from an 'intuitive/esoteric' perspective. God's justice and mercy however is perfect in that it is perfectly mediated because these are his eternal qualities of character, being his 'constitution'. Therefore 'God' grants all sentient beings equal opportunity for repentance, reform and restoration within the universal laws of divine government and free will. Your 'assumption' that it is 'logical' for God to forgive and fix everyone somehow automatically is 'illogical', because it does not address the factors of 'free will' and other universal laws such as 'karma' which I've shared on previously. All previous expounding holds, for a God who acts 'insanely' is not 'Real God', but a figment of one's imagination, framed from distorted interpretations of 'scripture'.

freelight wrote:

If a religious writing states something that is contrary to reason, logic or sanity, let alone 'justice' or 'mercy'...it is to be rejected.

Then you are going to have to reject much of the bible.
For God did many things that seem illogical to our limited view of what real logic is.

One instance is the healing of Naaman (2 Kings 5).
Naaman had leprosy.
He was told to wash in the Jordan River 7 times.
There was no logic to that, and he even questioned the logic of it because there were several bodies of water closer than the Jordan River.
Why did it have to be the Jordan River, and why 7 times?

And yet, he did it just the way he was told, and was healed.

If washing in the Jordan River had any "logical" reason to heal leprosy, then every leper in the country would have done it and been healed, and there would have been no more lepers in the country.

My reference to rejecting something in the Bible was 'specific' to the subject of ECT we're dealing with in the thread, but it also applies to any concept, principle or idea...whether these are shared in the Bible or any other book. The Bible contains many concepts, laws and ideas that are no longer applicable in our modern culture, being relative only to the times and mind-sets of the people of that era. Concerning the mention of miracles, one can believe those accounts on 'faith' if they wish, for as a spiritualist with charasmatic tendencies I've always believed in the psychic and spiritual powers of Man, and all the gifts of the Spirit. Miracles, signs and wonders do happen, by certain natural and supernatural laws, so I wouldnt apply any 'logic' to them, for they operate on different principles.

While puny little man likes to think he has the right to question God's logic, he can't really even fathom the logic of God's ways.

Best to just believe what God says, and leave the logic up to Him. He's much better at it!

We're talking about the problem of ECT here and I've shared IMO how it is illogical, unjust and insane. You're basing your 'position' on the belief that the Bible is 'God's Word' and somehow complete, perfect and infallible, which I do not believe. It may be inspired as are other religious writings (God is not limited to one book or religious cult), but its imperfect, fallible by human nature and language-limitations, and subject to 'mis-interpretation'.

A sentient being of spiritual intelligence has every right to question religious principles, ideas and beliefs and judge such by sound principle, reason, logic, spiritual sense and wisdom,....discernment on all levels. ECT is problematic, and even more so to assume human souls are detained and bound by God in a state of everlasting punishment, torment without end....to no end. This is the most insane assumption and imposition on 'God', one that violates his essential character. Passages regarding burning forever, everlasting punishment, etc. are metaphorical/symbolic...and the 'law of compensation' (karma) and other universal laws continue to affect and inspire souls to either fulfill their purpose of existence or forfeit such life-potential.

Again we come back to the concepts of 'free will', 'karma' and whether souls can choose eternal death (disintegration/extinction) or whether all souls ultimately come into harmony with God (universalism). There is more involved here, than just a belief that fallen angels and wicked souls will be burning in everlasting torment in a lake of fire, forever and ever and ever, with no hope or resolve. And to what end? That is INSANE. - if you want to believe your God who is supposed to be LOVE(itself) has set this up according to his will, then it is most monstrous.



What the hell is hell?



pj

 

[Timotheos]

I don't think you are understanding a thing I'm saying.

If you knew scripture at all, then you would know that the cries (prayers) of the people were represented by ascending smoke (as the altar of incense describes).

But when judgment comes, those cries are useless and will no longer have any chance of being answered.
Just as the rich man cried out, but his cries were not answered (Luke 16:19-31).

For those that know scripture, it is not rocket science to figure out what the continual ascending smoke of torment is.

Honestly now, If you didn't already hold the doctrine of eternal conscious torment do you think you would arrive at that conclusion by reading that the smoke of the wicked rises forever when they are burned up? You are reading your doctrine into scripture rather than reading it with an open mind. It is not rocket science to understand that smoke rises when something burns.

 

[Aimiel]

Honestly now, If you didn't already hold the doctrine of eternal conscious torment do you think you would arrive at that conclusion by reading that the smoke of the wicked rises forever when they are burned up? You are reading your doctrine into scripture rather than reading it with an open mind. It is not rocket science to understand that smoke rises when something burns.

:thumb:

 

[freelight]

seeing God for who He IS......

seeing God for who He IS......

Are you more knowledgable than Christ? He said these will depart into everlasting punishment.

Are you so sure Jesus said such and its not an interpolation? Also the 'term' 'everlasting punishment' could be variously interpreted, for according to the law of compensation....a soul can only reap what he has sowed, in equal and just proportion...for such is the law. An infinite amount of punishment for a finite, temporal degree of 'sin' is unjust, not to mention immoral. I've covered principles of 'free will' & 'karma' that also factor in here, plus how that all divine mediation forever satisfies the true balance and ministration of both justice and MERCY. God's Infinite Love and Will are ever at the forefront here, they are 'ultimate'. Love cannot act contrary to its nature.

Do you love sinners?

Love does according to its nature.

God is Love.

have you given your life, your blood for them?

Love naturally gives its soul in service to its beloved. You can accept this even without a belief in some 'blood atonement'. Love saves, inspires, redeems, empowers, restores, ennobles, envalues. Is Love's will eternal or not?

will comforting them in their rebellion against God help them?

No one is comforting anyone here,.....'God is not mocked,...whatever a man sows, that also shall he reap'. Did you forget the law of compensation? Pain, suffering, punishment, consequences are a natural 'effect' of trangressing natural and spiritual laws. In the context of eternal LOVE...they are corrective in nature...encouraging souls to come into harmony with Source.



pj

 

[Tambora]

You're basing your 'position' on the belief that the Bible is 'God's Word'

Absolutely.

 

[Totton Linnet]

No, do you think you are?



And I agree with him. This doesn't say that the everlasting punishment is everlasting torment. Are you more knowledgable than Christ? He said that they go to destruction. Matthew 7:13. So the everlasting punishment (at least according to Christ and little ol me, is to be destroyed and never remade.)


Yes


No, but I believe the one who has, and He said that they will perish, but all who believe in Him will not perish, but will have eternal life. John 3:16. I believe Him, why don't you believe Him too?


I don't know what you mean by this. I tell everyone I meet that the wages of sin is death, and by trusting Jesus Christ they can have eternal life.


I don't know.

Do you have any scripture that backs up your belief that the wicked will not perish but will rather live forever after they die in hell where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead?

Thou wast in Eden, strengthening Adam's hand to sin.