It is YOU who are stuck in morbidity, for th most part we are rejoicing n the One who has saved us. All you can talk about is hell.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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It is YOU who are stuck in morbidity, for th most part we are rejoicing n the One who has saved us. All you can talk about is hell.
Apology accepted, I'm glad we can put the playground arguments behind us. They just distract from the truth found in scripture.
Now, Jesus said that the way is wide that leads to destruction. This clearly means that Jesus believed that the result of sin is destruction, not eternal conscious torment. Jesus spoke of destruction in Gehenna, not eternal conscious torment in Gehenna. Do you see why I believe that there is destruction in Gehenna and not eternal conscious torment in Gehenna?
Bless you, I can see why you think that.
But, in my defense the reason all I want to talk about on this thread is hell is that is the topic of this thread. Did you see the Thread Title before you posted? "IS THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT BIBLICAL OR NOT?" Did you think we would be talking about daisy fields here? I agree that it is morbid for people to assume that God set up a place of eternal torture and sends people there. That is why I point out the scripture that says otherwise, and that's why I point out that the scriptures that people claim as proof of ECT do not actually prove ECT.
If you want to talk about something else, there are a few other threads on TOL where you can. If you can't find one, you could always start your own thread.
You can't use one or even one hundred scriptures in order to disprove other scriptures which make you cry, that is an unlawful use of scripture.
What place in heaven could the wicked have? if even talking about Jesus makes them angry now how will they feel in His presence?
Best place for them is hell.
What place in heaven could the wicked have? if even talking about Jesus makes them angry now how will they feel in His presence?
Best place for them is hell.
What kindness God has, what love for us to create the sun, to reject God is to reject His kindness and His gifts....who is sending them?
In hell they can seethe in their anger and hate as much as they want to...salted with fire.
Do you usually use passages from the Apocalyptic Book of Revelation to interpret all other scripture? Since Revelation says that Jesus was a lamb, do you interpret all of the gospels that way? Mary gave birth to a lamb in a manger? John baptized a lamb in the Jordan River? Pontius Pilate had a lamb crucified? If this sounds ridiculous, it is. But it is the same thing you are doing. Read John 3:16 and tell me about those who do not believe in the Son of God. It says that they perish. Read Matthew 7:13 and tell me where the wide road leads. To destruction, not eternal conscious torment in hell. Read Romans 6:23 and tell me what the wages of sin is. The wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that they pay the penalty of eternal destruction. Jude and Peter say that the destruction of Sodom and Gemorrah is an example of the coming destruction for those who reject God. Even Revelation tells us that the lake of fire is the second death. It is death, not eternal conscious torment.
You are taking one out of context prooftext from a book that is full of symbolism and you are using that one verse to trump all of the rest of scripture. That is not sound exegesis.
I thought you didn't want to talk about hell?
I never said the wicked go to heaven when they die. I agree with what the Bible says. The wicked perish (Psalm 37:20) and the wicked will be no more (Psalm 37:10).
I don't use scripture to disprove other scripture. All of scripture agrees that the wicked are destroyed, and there will be no more wickedness. You can't use one scripture and use it to disprove all of the rest of scripture. That is an unlawful use of scripture. I am just reading scripture and pointing out what it says. The Bible (Matthew 3:12) says the chaff is burned up. Scripture does not say that the chaff burns forever and is never burnt up.
I've given you some of the scripture that proves what I am saying is true, there is much more. But you haven't given any scripture that shows the wicked go to hell when they die where they are to be tormented alive forever while they are dead. I know that this is something different than you always thought was true, but what does the Bible actually say? Does it say that the penalty for sin is death? Or does it say the penalty for sin is eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever? Read Romans 6:23 and tell me what it says the wages of sin is.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Yet we use the book of Revelation to help us believe that in the end: God wins. The New Heaven and The New Earth give us solace, in that we know our God holds the future. We know from what Jesus said that Heaven is real. We also know from what Jesus said that hell is real. He described the rich man in hell and told us that there was no relief from his torments. The facts stated in Revelation are facts, even though the book is rich with symbolism. We know (in part) that what is described will take place. We know (in part) that Jesus is The Door, The Lamb, The Way, The Truth, The Life and The Only Eternal Life; and yet we do not get confused and follow strangers. We also know that hell and eternal conscious torment is real and so we don't have to believe those who come along to try to tell us it is merely symbolic.
Are you more knowledgable than Christ? He said these will depart into everlasting punishment.
Do you love sinners? have you given your life, your blood for them? will comforting them in their rebellion against God help them? surely you are easing them on their way to hell. Will God thank you for that?
Do you love sinners? have you given your life, your blood for them? will comforting them in their rebellion against God help them? surely you are easing them on their way to hell. Will God thank you for that?
Aimiel
Well-known member
Death is the punishment human bodies receive for sin. The Second Death (ECT) is what souls receive at judgement. Being tormented in flames for ever and ever isn't life. It is constant death. It is punishment, not life. It is far more severe than we can begin to imagine.
No, do you think you are?
And I agree with him. This doesn't say that the everlasting punishment is everlasting torment. Are you more knowledgable than Christ? He said that they go to destruction. Matthew 7:13. So the everlasting punishment (at least according to Christ and little ol me, is to be destroyed and never remade.)
Yes
No, but I believe the one who has, and He said that they will perish, but all who believe in Him will not perish, but will have eternal life. John 3:16. I believe Him, why don't you believe Him too?
I don't know what you mean by this. I tell everyone I meet that the wages of sin is death, and by trusting Jesus Christ they can have eternal life.
I don't know.
Do you have any scripture that backs up your belief that the wicked will not perish but will rather live forever after they die in hell where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead?
The second death is not eternal conscious torment. If it were, it would not be death. If they can feel the torment of the flames then they are not dead, they are alive. You are redefining words to fit your doctrine. That is the only way you can hold onto your doctrine. First you assume your doctrine is true, then you redefine the words of the bible to fit your doctrine. This is called eisegesis, reading your view into scripture. Exegesis is reading scripture and deriving your doctrine out of what scripture says. Let go of your preconceptions and read what scripture actually says. The wicked will perish and will be no more, because the wages of sin is death. The destruction of Sodom is an example of the coming destruction of the wicked on Judgment Day. The lake of fire is the second death. This is what scripture says.
Aimiel
Well-known member
The Scripture also says that smoke ascends from their torment forever. Where there is smoke: there is fire. The fire does not go out. The torment does not cease. The smoke from the fire of their torment is eternally rising. It isn't going to change just because you don't like it. Scripture says it. Stop trying to deny it means what it says. You're in denial. That isn't healthy.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Then:
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
And a thousand years later, we find that the beast and false prophet have not been anihilated in the lake of fire, but are still there:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
hopou kai to thērion kai ho pseudoprophētēs- where are also the beast and the false prophet
Then:
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
And a thousand years later, we find that the beast and false prophet have not been anihilated in the lake of fire, but are still there:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
hopou kai to thērion kai ho pseudoprophētēs- where are also the beast and the false prophet
i'm sorry, but I'm not in denial. :chuckle:
The reason the smoke goes up, is because something is burned. The smoke rising indicates the destruction of the sinner, which coincidentally is just what the rest of the Bible says will happen to the unrepentant sinner.
You are in denial, and you and I agree that denial is not healthy, so...Stop trying to deny what scripture says. The wages of sin is death.
Do you find it best to take passages out of the Book o fRevelation and use them to interpret the rest of scripture?
I find that important doctrines are re-iterated throughout scripture and not merely found in only one book.
If you look at the passage you are referring to, Revelation 20:10, you can see that it doesn't say that people will be be burned alive in hell forever after they die. You brought up the greek, so let's look at it. καὶ ὁ διάβολος ὁ πλανῶν αὐτοὺς ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ θείου ὅπου καὶ τὸ θηρίον καὶ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης, καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.
As you can see from the greek, the devil (ὁ διάβολος), the beast (τὸ θηρίον), and the false prophet (ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης) are in the lake of fire. Don't forget that Rev 20:14 specifically says that the lake of fire is the second death. So those that worship the beast are tossed into the lake of fire, which is the second death, and destroyed there along with them. The beast and the false prophet represent institutions which are lead by the devil. This is saying they will be destroyed along with the devil. It is likely that the beast represents corrupt human government, and the false prophet represents corrupt religion. But it is risky to interpret these symbols since it seeems everyone interprets them differently. That's one more reason, by the way, to not just get your doctrine from the BOR.
Edit: also, do not forget that Revelation 17:11 says that the beast goes to destruction.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Yeah, you are. You deny Scriptural Truth. You deny obvious clues. You deny basic Christian tenets. Deny, deny, deny. Yup. Denial.
Yup... eternal torment creates smoke, so smoke ascending eternally is what it is: evidence of eternal torment taking place.
But if they were not being tormented for eternity why would the smoke be spoken of as ascending eternally? Wouldn't it dissipate? Wouldn't it be recycled? Wouldn't it stop, eventually? It cannot though: since it is eternally rising.
What am I denying? Show me anything you think I'm denying. I have shown you (even though you deny it). I won't do the same. I will admit to it, if you can show me anything you think I might be denying.
So you say. Do you have any proof? Or shall I just accept your word as gospel, so to speak? I don't deny scriptural truth. I believe the scriptures are accurate. Why don't we stick to scripture in this discussion instead of your faulty idea of my mental state? This seems uncomfortably close to an adhom fallacy to me. ButI've learned my lesson on that.
Does it? Burning things is what creates smoke, but I suppose that goes against your doctrine, so "where there's smoke, there's torment", at least in your mind.
Check to see how the phrase is used in the rest of scripture and you will have your answer.
John 3:16 says perish, Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death, over and over the bible promises eternal life only to those who have faith in Jesus Christ. By saying that the wicked do not perish, don't go to their death, and everyone gets eternal life in heaven or hell, you are denying these scriptures.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Smoke ascending for ever and ever... torment continuing for ever and ever... that proves it, indeed. Do you deny that Scripture states that?
It doesn't say, "Smoke of their destruction," though, does it? :think:
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
No, I admit they are going to their death. Souls are being tormented for ever and ever. That isn't life. Life is growth. Life is change. Life is learning. Life is beautiful. Look it up. Life is great. The first death is an end to our body. The Second Death is torment in the Lake of Fire. The Bible says so. It doesn't say: "They will be eliminated," It says they will be tormented for ever and ever. Please believe what It says. The Bible doesn't lie.