Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

God's justice.

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Interesting. I would call it "God's Justice" but according to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not being alive and on fire forever.
The verse you quoted said "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord". It doesn't say "I will set the lost on fire and keep them alive forever while they burn, saith the Lord".

So, if I can't call the doctrine that says the lost will burn alive forever in hell "The doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment", I'm at a loss as to what I should call it. I would call it "UnBiblical", But "The doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment" seems as fair and descriptive of a label for the doctrine as any.

 

[Timotheos]

As for being "on fire", that's nonsense.

I agree. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. I believe the Bible.

 

[freelight]

Understanding terms (call it 'karma' or 'law of compensation', etc.)

Understanding terms (call it 'karma' or 'law of compensation', etc.)

But "Karma", as far as I am concerned, is a word and concept that comes from Eastern religions, and I consider those religions to be false. That is what I believe and I have a right to beleive that.

And for the record, Karma are reaping what you sow are not exactly the same thing. They are similar, but there are different philosophies and nuances behind them.

The 'law of compensation' is a universal law of nature. I use the term 'karma' to generally refer to this principle, whether or not there are different 'naunces' from an eastern religious perspective compared to western traditions,....the principle of 'cause/effect' and 'act/consequence' still follows, wherever any thoughts, words or actions have a conditional effect upon the soul. A broader understanding then of the term 'karma' is essential here, because it includes all aspects or nuances where 'act' & 'consequence' follows. I've explained it earlier here (and elsewhere) with a link on the 'law of compensation' from the Padgett messages which puts it into a more 'biblically' oriented context. - Again,...wherever there is genuine 'freedom of choice' and 'personal responsibility'...the universal law of compensation is involved, since all 'actions' produce 'results/effects'.

Again,...being a more eclectic spiritualist, I employ universal terms to religious and spiritual principles which are all-inclusive as they pertain to the subject involved. As far as what I see as problematic about ECT, has been shared earlier thru-out this thread here (quite amply). - An RCC perspective doesn't necessarily solve the problem, except to be more 'charitable' by adding 'purgatory' into the equation. Otherwise, Spiritualist doctrine more rationally and universally covers a more tenable view, besides speculations arising from various schools over how 'free will' and the extension of God's eternal mercy factors into providing salvation for souls.

No single religious 'cult' or 'denonimation' has a monopoly on 'God'.


pj

 

[Zeke]

If you had, you'd understand. Obviously you don't.

Keep trying, the matrix is hard to break free from.

 

[freelight]

More light on how I use the term 'karma'

More light on how I use the term 'karma'

Paul did not have a different gospel. Paul called it his gospel because he was an apostle. You misunderstand much.

I've done enough research on Paul to see how different his gospel was from the original apostles, which was the cause of much dissension and conflict between the two parties. Portal access here. He called it 'his' gospel for a reason, owning that is was according to his own personal revelations, deeming all other 'teachings' as 'cursed'. While Paul's gnostic insights and allegorical teachings have some value, his other haughty and egotistical claims and opinions thru-out his writings are evident. (note that not all the letters ascribed to him are considered 'authentic' but are 'pseudographical', see here).

The Holy Bible is true. The scriptures say it was Peter.
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ: To those to whom there has been allotted the same precious faith as that which is ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

2 Peter is spurious (pseudographical). You need some proper education which was provided for you in a link (links are hilighted in 'blue'). Go here. Not doing your homework on these issues cannot help you any, but can only perpetuate ignorance.

I do not doubt the scriptures.

Having a more thorough knowledge of what are called 'scriptures' and their historicity/authorship/cultural-context is peferable than just a 'blind-faith' approach.

I do not consider information from religions of demons.

Again, the vast area of knowledge-research and accounts we have from NDE's, OBE's, spirit-communications (mediumship), past-life regression therapy ('recall' during hypnosis) and other supports from psychical research enlighten us as to what the afterlife is like, giving evidence for the continuity of life, and that spirit-souls make their own 'heaven' or 'hell' by their own choices and actions (back to the law of compensation/karma). Your ignorance (and lack of interest or investigation into the research material provided for you) does not negate that knowledge.

Your personal opinion and false statement that I do not understand karma means nothing to me.
Karma is an evil doctrine. The teachings of Karma teach that a disabled person deserves this as punishment for a past life, and that all bad things that happen to a person is punishment for something they did.
It is you who is either lying, or do not know what you claim to believe in.

See 'the law of compensation' here. - as I shared earlier with CC, I do not limit the term 'karma' to a presumed definition within a 'Hindu-buddhist' context, but use it to refer to the universal principle of 'cause-effect', 'action-consequence'. 'Karma' means 'action', so it includes both cause and effect in any and all actions, as long as they have a 'conditional' element to them. I've amply defined and explained my using the term 'karma', so a prescribed aversion towards the term is your own personal hang-up. Like it or not, all actions receive their corresponding results, "measure for measure" as Jesus taught....and all souls are judged "according to their works" - this is definitively, the law of 'karma' (as clearly explained).

You do not recognize the truth.

A discussion on what 'truth' even is.....would take on ontological/epistemological dimensions that are beyond the kin of this thread.


pj

 

[Zeke]

The 'law of compensation' is a universal law of nature. I use the term 'karma' to generally refer to this principle, whether or not there are different 'naunces' from an eastern religious perspective compared to western traditions,....the principle of 'cause/effect' and 'act/consequence' still follows, wherever any thoughts, words or actions have a conditional effect upon the soul. A broader understanding then of the term 'karma' is essential here, because it includes all aspects or nuances where 'act' & 'consequence' follows. I've explained it earlier here (and elsewhere) with a link on the 'law of compensation' from the Padgett messages which puts it into a more 'biblically' oriented context. - Again,...wherever there is genuine 'freedom of choice' and 'personal responsibility'...the universal law of compensation is involved, since all 'actions' produce 'results/effects'.

Again,...being a more eclectic spiritualist, I employ universal terms to religious and spiritual principles which are all-inclusive as they pertain to the subject involved. As far as what I see as problematic about ECT, has been shared earlier thru-out this thread here (quite amply). - An RCC perspective doesn't necessarily solve the problem, except to be more 'charitable' by adding 'purgatory' into the equation. Otherwise, Spiritualist doctrine more rationally and universally covers a more tenable view, besides speculations arising from various schools over how 'free will' and the extension of God's eternal mercy factors into providing salvation for souls.

No single religious 'cult' or 'denonimation' has a monopoly on 'God'.


pj

Can't give ya a rep, so here it is. :up: Ubuntu! Blessings Zeke.

 

[God's Truth]

Because as Christians we recognize that "Karma" is a teaching of another religion, and since we are Christians it follows that we believe in Christianity and therefore believe that other religions are false.

Common sense 101

.

That's right.

 

[freelight]

miss..............

miss..............

That's right.

Not quite, since I've already explained and clearly defined how I used the word 'karma' previously, and more importantly it does relate to the severity and duration of the so called 'punishment' for sins, since every man is reaping what he sows (no more, no less, according to the law of self-accountability). Understand the 'law of compensation' first, before assumptions.

All are judged/rewarded for their works. - all 'actions' in the realm of cause/effect are 'conditional'.



pj

 

[God's Truth]

Because your pastor or priest said it was? or you had some spirit tell you? or you read it in a book you think is Gods word even when it is repulsive to common sense?

If you would get Jesus’ teachings and do what Jesus says, you would know the truth. See John 7:17.

The principle of karma matches the scriptures law of reaping and sowing, and is neither good or evil, like any thing it is the intent behind it that makes it negative or positive.

No, the karma doctrine does not match the scripture about reaping and sowing.

The demonic element in this thread is displayed for all to see who haven't been chained to a book that is mythology and allegorical, with questionable translations swayed by culture and superstitions.

Again, if anyone chooses to do what Jesus says they would know the truth. Instead, you speak as an inexperienced person. See John 7:17.

You literally take scripture that isn't meant to be, and until you break that spell of fear implants your going to be a tool for this type of irrational thinking about the Creator and what a real Christian is supposed to be, which is planting the good seeds for "all humanity".

Of coarse that kind of talk is repulsive to demons no doubt.

You reject what a real Christian is.

 

[God's Truth]

Although the principle of Karma is from Buddhism, it isn't demonic, per se, but is rooted in a demonic religion. Jesus said that we reap what we sow (the Law of Reciprocity), but He also said that God would save us from our sins, due to His Blood. He not only doesn't give us the punishment we deserve (Karma) but gives us what we DON'T deserve (grace). We, as Christians, are under His Grace, but we still have consequences to our actions. God looks upon the thoughts and intents of the heart, while men look at the physical and what they hear and think. God looks to our roots. He tends to them and deals with us as His Children, using discipline where He deems necessary. If you're content and not having any difficulties in your life, most likely you're very far from God. He chastens those whom He loves. I always say: new level... new devil. The closer you get to God the more Satan tries to pull the rug out from under you.

Why would you make it as if karma is real life wisdom?

The world’s wisdom is foolishness to God (Matthew 11:25; Luke 10:21; 1 Corinthians 1:7, 19-21, 25-27; 2:1, 4-7, 13; 3:18,19; 2 Corinthians 1:2; Ephesians 1:8, 17; Colossians 1:9; 2:3; James 1:5; 2 Peter 3:15).

Karma is nothing like the biblical scripture of reaping and sowing. Karma is about people being born disabled because they were evil in the previous life. It is also about people having bad things happen to them because of having asked for it, literally and figuratively.
Good can happen to the evil, and bad can happen to the righteous for nothing they have done. In addition, there is no such thing as a previous life.

 

[God's Truth]

If you're content and not having any difficulties in your life, most likely you're very far from God. He chastens those whom He loves. I always say: new level... new devil. The closer you get to God the more Satan tries to pull the rug out from under you.

I would not agree with what you said.

Submit to God and the devil will flee from you. Of course, the devil roams around waiting to devour someone; however, I still would not agree with your saying what you did right here.

 

[God's Truth]

That is weird coming from a Catholic, the symbols alone in your churches, and the vatican contradict that assertion.

Catholicism does cause superstitions.

 

[God's Truth]

I've done enough research on Paul to see how different his gospel was from the original apostles, which was the cause of much dissension and conflict between the two parties. Portal access here. He called it 'his' gospel for a reason, owning that is was according to his own personal revelations, deeming all other 'teachings' as 'cursed'. While Paul's gnostic insights and allegorical teachings have some value, his other haughty and egotistical claims and opinions thru-out his writings are evident. (note that not all the letters ascribed to him are considered 'authentic' but are 'pseudographical', see here).

You are wrong. The apostles all taught the same.

2 Peter is spurious (pseudographical). You need some proper education which was provided for you in a link (links are hilighted in 'blue'). Go here. Not doing your homework on these issues cannot help you any, but can only perpetuate ignorance.

I have been waiting for you to attack me personally. It is the only way people in falseness can defend their beliefs. You do not have truth on your side, so you have to personally attack with lies and slander.

Having a more thorough knowledge of what are called 'scriptures' and their historicity/authorship/cultural-context is peferable than just a 'blind-faith' approach.

That is just more of your worthless opinions.

See 'the law of compensation' here. - as I shared earlier with CC, I do not limit the term 'karma' to a presumed definition within a 'Hindu-buddhist' context, but use it to refer to the universal principle of 'cause-effect', 'action-consequence'. 'Karma' means 'action', so it includes both cause and effect in any and all actions, as long as they have a 'conditional' element to them. I've amply defined and explained my using the term 'karma', so a prescribed aversion towards the term is your own personal hang-up. Like it or not, all actions receive their corresponding results, "measure for measure" as Jesus taught....and all souls are judged "according to their works" - this is definitively, the law of 'karma' (as clearly explained).

I do not care to go to your links. Debate here and do not bother to post links.
Karma is the doctrine of demons.

 

[God's Truth]

Not quite, since I've already explained and clearly defined how I used the word 'karma' previously, and more importantly it does relate to the severity and duration of the so called 'punishment' for sins, since every man is reaping what he sows (no more, no less, according to the law of self-accountability). Understand the 'law of compensation' first, before assumptions.

All are judged/rewarded for their works. - all 'actions' in the realm of cause/effect are 'conditional'.



pj

Again, karma is a doctrine of demons.

The karma doctrine says those born disabled were evil people in a former life. It also says people ask for all the bad that happens to them.

 

[SeekerOfTruth68]

I just posted a new thread called "What does "Eternity" mean in the Christian Bible?"

I thought "Eternal" meant no beginning and no end? Then, in what sense would eternal punishment, eternal death or ECT have no beginning?

 

[Zeke]

God's Truth;3678068]If you would get Jesus’ teachings and do what Jesus says, you would know the truth. See John 7:17.

So far Christ hasn't confronted me about using it.

No, the karma doctrine does not match the scripture about reaping and sowing.

There are variations in its use like any concept, the basic principle is the same, you can disagree with how its applied by some but that doesn't make it null and void.

Again, if anyone chooses to do what Jesus says they would know the truth. Instead, you speak as an inexperienced person. See John 7:17.

Well like I said Christ hasn't confronted me about it, so until then I won't worry about what others assume about what I do, or don't know concerning Christ, or the relationship we have.

You reject what a real Christian is.

I reject the false doctrine of eternal punishment for obvious reasons to me, its not even plausible for any kind of humane justice system, unless your a vengeful sadist, so if you hold that position then yes I would reject that part of your doctrine, I have done enough study to know its a bad translation, and I don't worship a book like its an idol, the spirit isn't bound by ink on some pages that may are may not be Gods opinion, the fact that I was led out of that belief speaks to my spirit it was false.

 

[God's Truth]

So far Christ hasn't confronted me about using it.

It is written in the Holy Bible and says if ANYONE…
That is about anyone. That is about you.

There are variations in its use like any concept, the basic principle is the same, you can disagree with how its applied by some but that doesn't make it null and void.

The karma doctrine is a doctrine of demons. It is not like the truth.

Well like I said Christ hasn't confronted me about it, so until then I won't worry about what others assume about what I do, or don't know concerning Christ, or the relationship we have.

Here the written Word of God is now confronting you.
John 7:17 NIV Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

I reject the false doctrine of eternal punishment for obvious reasons to me, its not even plausible for any kind of humane justice system, unless your a vengeful sadist, so if you hold that position then yes I would reject that part of your doctrine, I have done enough study to know its a bad translation, and I don't worship a book like its an idol, the spirit isn't bound by ink on some pages that may are may not be Gods opinion, the fact that I was led out of that belief speaks to my spirit it was false.

So then, are you saying you believe the spirit can die?

 

[Zeke]

God's Truth;3678112]It is written in the Holy Bible and says if ANYONE…
That is about anyone. That is about you.

The testament of the spirit is what counts, the Bible is mythology and allegory past down through many cultures and diverse stories that teach the same principles, so Jesus is just a name given to the story in the Bible. The literal view is based on the shadows and types, images that reflect but have no substance within, just allegories to teach a inner truth about the kingdom of God! do you know where Jesus said that kingdom was, and that it comes not with observation!.

The karma doctrine is a doctrine of demons. It is not like the truth.

OK so to you its the spawn of satan got it, to me its warm and fuzzy compared to a belief in a hell.

Here the written Word of God is now confronting you.
John 7:17 NIV Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Not really, I have done nothing that needs confronting by the spirit. I can only judge my own household and its doing fine the love that cast out all fear is doing it work I am at peace, Romans 11:33.

So then, are you saying you believe the spirit can die?

No, if the first fruit be holy then so will the whole lump Romans 11:16, 1Tim 4:10.

 

[God's Truth]

The testament of the spirit is what counts, the Bible is mythology and allegory past down through many cultures and diverse stories that teach the same principles, so Jesus is just a name given to the story in the Bible. The literal view is based on the shadows and types, images that reflect but have no substance within, just allegories to teach a inner truth about the kingdom of God! do you know where Jesus said that kingdom was, and that it comes not with observation!.

You speak as an inexperienced person. You know nothing about Jesus.
If you want to know the truth, you have to do what Jesus teaches. Then you will know.

Not really, I have done nothing that needs confronting by the spirit. I can only judge my own household and its doing fine the love that cast out all fear is doing it work I am at peace, Romans 11:33.

You do not have the mind of Christ.

No, if the first fruit be holy then so will the whole lump Romans 11:16, 1Tim 4:10.

All have a chance to be saved, but they cannot enter this gift of salvation unless they believe.
Those who believe repent. Not all will repent.

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

Revelations 9:21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelation 16:9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

 

[Zeke]

You speak as an inexperienced person. You know nothing about Jesus.
If you want to know the truth, you have to do what Jesus teaches. Then you will know.

You do not have the mind of Christ.

All have a chance to be saved, but they cannot enter this gift of salvation unless they believe.
Those who believe repent. Not all will repent.

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.

Revelations 9:21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

Revelation 16:9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

Actually your the one that knows nothing about the historical record concerning this Jesus, the truth about this ancient myth is something you couldn't handle so your delusion is far safer for your mental well being at this time.

Happy trails, Zeke.