Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Aimiel]

The concepts of the scripture are fair game to use by anyone...

No, since you have no understanding of God, you have no business spreading rumors about Him.

...I am attacking the ignorance of trying to make it a literal application, and the false perception that it has any historical validity.

It is literal, thinking otherwise is mere foolishness. It is the best historic record in antiquity and indeed the ONLY record for part of history. Not one single historic fact stated in Scripture has ever been disproved.

Some of the teaching are valid body science, It also has a connection to astrotheology which the ancients practice long before the Jesus myth was offered to the world...

Myth? Obviously you have never read Dr. Simon Greenleaf's book: "Testimony of the Evangelists." It explains that, according to the evidence available, we have more proof of Jesus' birth, life, words, death, burial and resurrection than we have of anyone in antiquity. The facts are there. You can also read a short synopsis of his book HERE. Dr. Greenleaf was one of the founders of the Harvard Law School and taught there. He was considered the single greatest authority on evidence in jurisprudence. He was challenged to disprove Scripture (before he became a believer he was a stout atheist) and thought he would rip the Bible to shreds. After weighing the evidence he found not only that the Gospels are true, but came to believe that Jesus is Lord and God.

...The Ancients used mythological stories and legends to tell the workings of the universe, Jesus can be found in many a motif in Egypt lore and many others.

No. The ideas that Jesus explained the Truth of are only found in Him. He is The One and Only Truth about God. The rest are half-truths which is the same as a whole lie.

If you would take the time to really research the subject you would find out your faith is blind and has no foundation in actual history.

I have. I've been researching the matter for 45 years now (I was saved in 1968).

The Christ like thing to do is tells the truth even though it may not be popular to those who have been caught in its web.

I have. You should listen to your own preaching. :duh:

And my faith isn't blind. I can see my Bible. It is a roadmap to Heaven. I'm a citizen of Heaven now. :thumb:

 

[Aimiel]

I want see them really free and experience liberty within themselves as a sovereign being, and see the man is evil nonsense for what it is, they want us to shake and bake for ever when it's all said and done

No... if we did, we'd just say: "To hell with you then," and walk away. We'd much rather you get into Heaven, because no one wants anyone to end up in hell. Jesus came down and gave His Life, He shed His Blood, so that you could have His Righteousness forever. Why do you think that we might want anyone to miss out on eternal life rather than suffer eternal torment? That would be sick. God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that all might repent and find eternal life. Many will be lost, but many will be in Heaven.

 

[Zeke]

No, since you have no understanding of God, you have no business spreading rumors about Him.It is literal, thinking otherwise is mere foolishness. It is the best historic record in antiquity and indeed the ONLY record for part of history. Not one single historic fact stated in Scripture has ever been disproved.Myth? Obviously you have never read Dr. Simon Greenleaf's book: "Testimony of the Evangelists." It explains that, according to the evidence available, we have more proof of Jesus' birth, life, words, death, burial and resurrection than we have of anyone in antiquity. The facts are there. You can also read a short synopsis of his book HERE. Dr. Greenleaf was one of the founders of the Harvard Law School and taught there. He was considered the single greatest authority on evidence in jurisprudence. He was challenged to disprove Scripture (before he became a believer he was a stout atheist) and thought he would rip the Bible to shreds. After weighing the evidence he found not only that the Gospels are true, but came to believe that Jesus is Lord and God.No. The ideas that Jesus explained the Truth of are only found in Him. He is The One and Only Truth about God. The rest are half-truths which is the same as a whole lie.I have. I've been researching the matter for 45 years now (I was saved in 1968).I have. You should listen to your own preaching. :duh:

And my faith isn't blind. I can see my Bible. It is a roadmap to Heaven. I'm a citizen of Heaven now. :thumb:

I am not talking about opinion of what happened, I am speaking of hard historical evidence by scholars , you have none.

 

[Zeke]

No... if we did, we'd just say: "To hell with you then," and walk away. We'd much rather you get into Heaven, because no one wants anyone to end up in hell. Jesus came down and gave His Life, He shed His Blood, so that you could have His Righteousness forever. Why do you think that we might want anyone to miss out on eternal life rather than suffer eternal torment? That would be sick. God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that all might repent and find eternal life. Many will be lost, but many will be in Heaven.

No your doctrine is sick like your perversion of love, and justice.

 

[Aimiel]

I am not talking about opinion of what happened, I am speaking of hard historical evidence by scholars , you have none.

Yes, the hard historical evidence created by scholars is what we all look to, isn't it? Nope. It's the Truth, and that is summed up in Christ. The evidence of Scripture speaks for Itself.

 

[Aimiel]

No your doctrine is sick like your perversion of love, and justice.

Apparently you lack understanding.

 

[freelight]

The mother-matrix........

The mother-matrix........

Paul (freelight) doesn't believe that there are demons.

There is plenty of evil using human beings as instruments to say nothing of some outside entities called 'demons' (or call various 'spirits' whatever you like)...since evil or insanity operates by perverse forces both within and without.

The ridiculous claims of something being 'demonic' or a 'doctrine of demons' is a common ploy of fundamentalists to 'demonize' anything that does not agree with their particular theology or 'formulas'.

He believes that all roads lead to Heaven.

A proper re-cognition or re-turn to 'reality' is heaven, the 'seeing' that 'God' is already always PRESENT. - if this is true, there is no absence of heaven anywhere. Is 'God' absent from his own omnipresence?

He's living in a vacuum, created by his HUGE study of demonic religions and his head is swimming with half-truths (whole lies).

- the beauty of truth is its universality. - such would naturally include the recognition of truth and wisdom in most all religious traditions (symbology/mythology/art/archetypes) and schools of philosophy, since the knowledge of 'God' is universal by nature, since all 'perception' or 'knowledge' is derived from universal consciousness.



pj

 

[Aimiel]

The ridiculous claims of something being 'demonic' or a 'doctrine of demons' is a common ploy of fundamentalists to 'demonize' anything that does not agree with their particular theology or 'formulas'.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The Spirit of God is The One Who says it, we simply agree with Him.

A proper re-cognition or re-turn to 'reality' is heaven, the 'seeing' that 'God' is already always PRESENT. - if this is true, there is no absence of heaven anywhere. Is 'God' absent from his own omnipresence?

Heaven isn't on this earth. Heaven isn't in hell. Heaven is where the righteous go. Only those washed in His Blood are righteous. No one has ANY righteousness that didn't come to them through His Blood. Universalism is as false as all your other favorite religions. If you showed just half the loyalty to Christianity that you show to all the false religions you subscribe to, you'd probably be one of the world's foremost and stout Christians.

- the beauty of truth is its universality. - such would naturally include the recognition of truth and wisdom in most all religious traditions (symbology/mythology/art/archetypes) and schools of philosophy, since the knowledge of 'God' is universal by nature, since all 'perception' or 'knowledge' is derived from universal consciousness.

Were that the case, Christ would never have needed to say:

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He didn't stutter when He said it. He didn't get mis-quoted. He said it because He means it. He is The One and Only Way, The One and Only Truth and The One and Only Eternal Life. No one gets into Heaven except through His Blood. Ignoring that fact proves you are not Christian. Anyone who is Christian knows that The Power of God to forgive sin lies in Christ's Blood. It is the single most precious thing there is.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear All,

Aimiel is right. We don't want to see you not make it to heaven just because of your beliefs. We love you too much. You must know that. You cannot enter heaven, except Jesus vouches for you as a devout believer in Him as the Messiah and Son of God. I'm not trying to betray anyone here, but only speaking the truth as I know it. We'll probably never convince you to become Christian and you will not convince us to become Hindus. It's a shame. It's the same thing as atheist vs. Christian, or Islam vs. Christian. You just know that you'd rather like to stay in the religion you've become used to. But, that won't unfortunately get you into Heaven, and you will not be able to enjoy the fruits thereof. Trying to change your beliefs now is like talking to a brick wall. Whether you make it now only God knows.

God Grant You To Become Acquainted With His Son, Jesus!

MichaelC

 

[Timotheos]

Dear All,

Aimiel is right. We don't want to see you not make it to heaven just because of your beliefs. We love you too much. You must know that. You cannot enter heaven, except Jesus vouches for you as a devout believer in Him as the Messiah and Son of God. I'm not trying to betray anyone here, but only speaking the truth as I know it. We'll probably never convince you to become Christian and you will not convince us to become Hindus. It's a shame. It's the same thing as atheist vs. Christian, or Islam vs. Christian. You just know that you'd rather like to stay in the religion you've become used to. But, that won't unfortunately get you into Heaven, and you will not be able to enjoy the fruits thereof. Trying to change your beliefs now is like talking to a brick wall. Whether you make it now only God knows.

God Grant You To Become Acquainted With His Son, Jesus!

MichaelC

Thanks Michael,
Do you believe that I am going to be eternally tortured in hell forever and ever because I believe that the wages of sin is death (as the Bible clearly states in Romans 6:23) rather than eternal conscious torture in Hell?

The topic is "Is the doctrine of eternal conscious torment biblical or not?" I've shown good evidence that it is not biblical. The plain language of scripture shows that the penalty for sin is death rather than eternal conscious torment.

 

[Zeke]

Dear All,

Aimiel is right. We don't want to see you not make it to heaven just because of your beliefs. We love you too much. You must know that. You cannot enter heaven, except Jesus vouches for you as a devout believer in Him as the Messiah and Son of God. I'm not trying to betray anyone here, but only speaking the truth as I know it. We'll probably never convince you to become Christian and you will not convince us to become Hindus. It's a shame. It's the same thing as atheist vs. Christian, or Islam vs. Christian. You just know that you'd rather like to stay in the religion you've become used to. But, that won't unfortunately get you into Heaven, and you will not be able to enjoy the fruits thereof. Trying to change your beliefs now is like talking to a brick wall. Whether you make it now only God knows.

God Grant You To Become Acquainted With His Son, Jesus!

MichaelC

No the gesture is empty and misleading, like being tied to a stake with wood under it then ask to agree or you will burn.

Stockholm syndrome caused by a book and spiritual experience blinds the ability to think through your position rationally, the doctrine doesn't pass logic, or reason, and shows the condistion of the blinded heart that projects this attitude, and then try and say you received it from the Most Highs words caged in a book.

You worship Amon-RA and follow the plagiarized doctrines of Egypt and don't even know it.

 

[Aimiel]

Dear All,

Aimiel is right. We don't want to see you not make it to heaven just because of your beliefs. We love you too much. You must know that. You cannot enter heaven, except Jesus vouches for you as a devout believer in Him as the Messiah and Son of God. I'm not trying to betray anyone here, but only speaking the truth as I know it. We'll probably never convince you to become Christian and you will not convince us to become Hindus. It's a shame. It's the same thing as atheist vs. Christian, or Islam vs. Christian. You just know that you'd rather like to stay in the religion you've become used to. But, that won't unfortunately get you into Heaven, and you will not be able to enjoy the fruits thereof. Trying to change your beliefs now is like talking to a brick wall. Whether you make it now only God knows.

God Grant You To Become Acquainted With His Son, Jesus!

MichaelC

Excellent Post! :thumb:

 

[Aimiel]

Thanks Michael,
Do you believe that I am going to be eternally tortured in hell forever and ever because I believe that the wages of sin is death (as the Bible clearly states in Romans 6:23) rather than eternal conscious torture in Hell?

I don't... even though God's Word is clear in It's description of eternal conscious torment for un-believers and whosoever pretends to love The Lord but makes up lies about His Holy Word. I believe that your faith in Him is strong, even though you don't fully understand Scripture. You'll most likely come to a knowledge of the Truth regarding ECT before you reach Heaven anyway, since there is so much persecution coming to believers in the coming days. Many who don't hold fast to His Word will indeed fall by the wayside, but I don't believe you're one of those.

 

[Aimiel]

No the gesture is empty and misleading, like being tied to a stake with wood under it then ask to agree or you will burn.

Stockholm syndrome caused by a book and spiritual experience blinds the ability to think through your position rationally, the doctrine doesn't pass logic, or reason, and shows the condistion of the blinded heart that projects this attitude, and then try and say you received it from the Most Highs words caged in a book.

You worship Amon-RA and follow the plagiarized doctrines of Egypt and don't even know it.

Hogwash. MichaelCadry believes The Holy Scriptures and you would be wise to heed his example. You're the one who worships the god your imagination has created. You are the one who is walking around aimlessly in the darkness but calling it: "Light."

 

[freelight]

try again......

try again......

Dear All,

Aimiel is right. We don't want to see you not make it to heaven just because of your beliefs. We love you too much. You must know that. You cannot enter heaven, except Jesus vouches for you as a devout believer in Him as the Messiah and Son of God. I'm not trying to betray anyone here, but only speaking the truth as I know it. We'll probably never convince you to become Christian and you will not convince us to become Hindus. It's a shame. It's the same thing as atheist vs. Christian, or Islam vs. Christian. You just know that you'd rather like to stay in the religion you've become used to. But, that won't unfortunately get you into Heaven, and you will not be able to enjoy the fruits thereof. Trying to change your beliefs now is like talking to a brick wall. Whether you make it now only God knows.

God Grant You To Become Acquainted With His Son, Jesus!

MichaelC

Hello Michael,

As already shared here, I've presented the many problems and conundrums with ECT here. As we're dealing with 'principles' here and the character-attributes of 'God',....these are more important as a foundation, when compared to various beliefs or doctrines which do not compute when they represent a 'God' contrary to those principles which are supposed to be within the 'constitution' of that God, such as the the principles of justice, mercy, wisdom, fairness, equity.

The thread-title question has been addressed in more ways than one...and whether it is 'biblical' (an arbitrary term) or not, does not discount or address whether it is sane or not. The doctrine of ECT is therefore a 'belief' enhanced by a literal translation of passages in the english language which carry the meaning of words beyond their original intent, and still violates the verities of God's character as love and wisdom, as this 'god' supposedly condemns his own offspring to eternal suffering and torments without remedy. This is hardly 'sane' let alone loving.



pj

 

[Zeke]

Hogwash. MichaelCadry believes The Holy Scriptures and you would be wise to heed his example. You're the one who worships the god your imagination has created. You are the one who is walking around aimlessly in the darkness but calling it: "Light."

The Most High doesn't need worship Aimiel. Only slaves need a master to fall down in front off.

 

[freelight]

historicity of Jesus...............

historicity of Jesus...............

Yes, the hard historical evidence created by scholars is what we all look to, isn't it?

Yes,....we explore all the loopholes and bunny-trails in this thread here (see the thread itself and resource-links)

There are just as many who feel there is not enough evidence for Jesus existence as there are for his 'historical' appearance on earth, and those who feel there is evidence for such a man existing at one point in time, but that much embellishment was superimposed upon this 'character' to make him more than he really was, which now is the 'image' many traditional-orthodox Christians worship.

Another thread -

The pagan origins of the Christ-myth



pj

 

[freelight]

ingrams of light........

ingrams of light........

The Most High doesn't need worship Aimiel. Only slaves need a master to fall down in front off.

'God' is that sublime and universal reality or principle....omnipresent.

In the act of devotion (bhakti)....we may extend our affections towards 'God' in the response of love and the feelings of awe and appreciation that emenates therefrom.

Worship (worth-ship) is the inner-recognition of the divine value of life itself and its inward movement, however it reveals itself by the Spirit within our soul(temple).



pj

 

[Aimiel]

The Most High doesn't need worship Aimiel. Only slaves need a master to fall down in front off.

Those who know The Lord worship Him out of love, respect, admiration and awe at Who He is. We know and love Him because He gave His Life for us. We have his Life now, in bodies of flesh. We behold Him in one another. Those who we recognize as pretenders to Christianity we root out of The Kingdom and expose. They are less than insignificant. Attempting to rescue them before their un-timely demise is our forte. We're on a mission, with orders from Headquarters. We aren't any more slaves, since we only serve His Purposes and His Pursuits out of love for Him. His ways are past knowing. You cannot out-think or out-maneuver The One Who made the human brain. He's beyond comprehension.

 

[Aimiel]

Yes,....we explore all the loopholes and bunny-trails in this thread here (see the thread itself and resource-links)

There are just as many who feel there is not enough evidence for Jesus existence as there are for his 'historical' appearance on earth, and those who feel there is evidence for such a man existing at one point in time, but that much embellishment was superimposed upon this 'character' to make him more than he really was, which now is the 'image' many traditional-orthodox Christians worship.

Mumbo-jumbo, just like the rest of your silly ramblings. Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords, not a myth or pretense.