Is Prophecy Being Fulfilled in the Dispensation of Grace?

Right Divider

Body part
You crack me up, RD. I‘ve never once claimed they will get all the land back before the Lord returns.
You seemed to poopoo me when I pointed out that when the Lord does gather Israel again, that they will own ALL of the land.
I merely read scripture and accept that as proof when I see it happening before my very eyes.
Again, you see what you want to see.
Many people claim miracles. Do we believe them all?
Let’s face it, you don’t even think the Jews living in Israel today are God’s chosen people. Or are you denying that?
Why should I believe that they are? They deny the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, Paul does tell us about the rapture, and the signs we should watch for as we see the day approach.
Please, again, quote the scripture that you are talking about.
He cites the prophets as one of the sources of his teaching. Why do you doubt him?

Acts 26:22
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:​
Notice the semi-colon at the end of your quote? That means that the sentence that you quoted is INCOMPLETE.

Acts 26:22-23 (AKJV/PCE)​
(26:22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: (26:23) That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

That is what Paul is talking about and NOT the mystery of Christ (which includes the catching away).

But he also tells us about Israel, that they stumble. They aren’t kicked to the curb and REPLACED by the church.
I have never claims that they were replaced (for the election). What I have claimed is that God had a hidden plan that is currently in operation.

God's earthly plan includes Israel and the gentiles as distinct groups.
God's current dispensation makes no such distinction.
Jesus didn’t speak about the rapture?
Not even a hint?
Nope.

Actually, He did. Right there in Matthew 24. This is what makes rightly dividing such a wonderful term. THAT day is the day the Son of man comes for the church.

Matthew 24:36-41
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark. 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.​
That is NOT the catching away (i.e., the rapture). It is the OPPOSITE of the rapture.

The rapture takes away BELIEVERS.
Matthew 24 takes away UNBELIEVERS.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
It might be odd if God Himself didn't explicitly state the He had given Israel a certificate of divorce.

How is that not convincing to you. I truly do not get it!
Jesus claimed to be a door, and God is described as having wings.
John 10:7. Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.​

Psalms 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.​

God hates divorce. Therefore, anything that suggests that He Himself is guilty of divorce has got to be error. Therefore, God is merely using language the people would understand. Like being the Good Shepherd.

Malachi 2:14-16.
14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. 15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 16 For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the Lord of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.​
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You seemed to poopoo me when I pointed out that when the Lord does gather Israel again, that they will own ALL of the land.

Again, you see what you want to see.
Many people claim miracles. Do we believe them all?
Why should I believe that they are? They deny the Lord Jesus Christ.

They‘ve always denied Jesus is Lord. That, alone should tell you. Yes, they are called back to the land, and they are currently dry bones.
Please, again, quote the scripture that you are talking about.

Paul talking about the rapture, and what we are to watch for?
Notice the semi-colon at the end of your quote? That means that the sentence that you quoted is INCOMPLETE.

Acts 26:22-23 (AKJV/PCE)​
(26:22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: (26:23) That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

That is what Paul is talking about and NOT the mystery of Christ (which includes the catching away).

And you don’t think Paul is relying on any of the prophets regarding Israel? Other than what you’ve bolded above?

I’ll have to think about that one. I know you’ve missed the prophecy from Jesus in Matthew 24, but Did Paul miss it too, or did Jesus reveal it to him after He appeared to him on the road to Damascus? 🤔
I have never claims that they were replaced (for the election). What I have claimed is that God had a hidden plan that is currently in operation.

Well, it isn’t so hidden anymore, and Jesus, Himself, revealed a lot of what to expect right there in Matthew 24.
God's earthly plan includes Israel and the gentiles as distinct groups.
God's current dispensation makes no such distinction.

Yes, and there are different opinions about how that will work out.
Nope.


That is NOT the catching away (i.e., the rapture). It is the OPPOSITE of the rapture.

The rapture takes away BELIEVERS.
Matthew 24 takes away UNBELIEVERS.
No, Matthew covers more ground than you realize, but you are ignoring the part about Noah. The unbelievers are taken away in the flood. Before the flood comes one is taken, and one is left behind. That Ark is a picture of the rapture. Read it again.
 

Right Divider

Body part
They‘ve always denied Jesus is Lord. That, alone should tell you. Yes, they are called back to the land, and they are currently dry bones.
How convenient.
And you don’t think Paul is relying on any of the prophets regarding Israel? Other than what you’ve bolded above?
Paul used the prophets for a number of reasons... but never to support the things that God kept secret from the beginning of the world (i.e., the mystery of Christ).
I’ll have to think about that one. I know you’ve missed the prophecy from Jesus in Matthew 24, but Did Paul miss it too, or did Jesus reveal it to him after He appeared to him on the road to Damascus? 🤔
Jesus revealed many things to Paul that were not known before that.
Well, it isn’t so hidden anymore,
Indeed, once God made it know to Paul, Paul did not keep it a secret.
and Jesus, Himself, revealed a lot of what to expect right there in Matthew 24.
All related to Israel and NOT the body of Christ.
No, Matthew covers more ground than you realize, but you are ignoring the part about Noah. The unbelievers are taken away in the flood. Before the flood comes one is taken, and one is left behind. That Ark is a picture of the rapture. Read it again.
Again, you are seeing what you want to see. You are mixing things up.

Matt 24:39-41 (AKJV/PCE)​
(24:39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (24:40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (24:41) Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.​

The "ones taken" for like in Noah's day. Note that the flood "took them all away". That is a generalization about those that DIED in the flood due to God's judgment.

The "ones taken" in Matthew 24 are taken to judgment (and not a good one either).

The "ones taken" in the catching away are believers that are in the body of Christ. They have already been judged regarding salvation. They only judgment left for them is rewards at the judgment seat of Christ.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Many people claim miracles. Do we believe them all?
I may be missing something or just catching something not on point for thread: Connection between miracles and prophecy in thread? (just trying to follow, I don't always engage, enjoying it rather).
Why should I believe that they are? They deny the Lord Jesus Christ.
I agree. Is there an overall approach to Israel today for the Christian? Pray for them certainly, but anything for us to do politically? I have a thread, if this isn't the place for it, but you explain a bit further:
Please, again, quote the scripture that you are talking about.

Notice the semi-colon at the end of your quote? That means that the sentence that you quoted is INCOMPLETE.

Acts 26:22-23 (AKJV/PCE)​
(26:22) Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: (26:23) That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

That is what Paul is talking about and NOT the mystery of Christ (which includes the catching away).


I have never claims that they were replaced (for the election). What I have claimed is that God had a hidden plan that is currently in operation.
Again, if off topic please ignore: Do we as Christians have any mandate toward the current nation? In a nutshell, I'd always assumed we were to support Israel and had never thought we shouldn't. Some of the current happenings have me wondering if/what/when my part in any of it, which does intimate prophecy on thread topic. For me: How do I apply this thread in that narrow question or more broadly?
God's earthly plan includes Israel and the gentiles as distinct groups.
God's current dispensation makes no such distinction.

Nope.


That is NOT the catching away (i.e., the rapture). It is the OPPOSITE of the rapture.

The rapture takes away BELIEVERS.
Matthew 24 takes away UNBELIEVERS.
Agree on point but I also see Matthew 24 with immediate fulfillment, most specifically to the disciples. I concede there may be double fulfillment, but do believe Matthew 24 happened already.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
How convenient.

Paul used the prophets for a number of reasons... but never to support the things that God kept secret from the beginning of the world (i.e., the mystery of Christ).

Jesus revealed many things to Paul that were not known before that.

Indeed, once God made it know to Paul, Paul did not keep it a secret.

All related to Israel and NOT the body of Christ.

Again, you are seeing what you want to see. You are mixing things up.

Matt 24:39-41 (AKJV/PCE)​
(24:39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (24:40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (24:41) Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.​

The "ones taken" for like in Noah's day. Note that the flood "took them all away". That is a generalization about those that DIED in the flood due to God's judgment.
No, that makes no sense. That Isn’t what happened. The flood didn’t take one and leave the other. The flood took all those not taken up in the ark.
The "ones taken" in Matthew 24 are taken to judgment (and not a good one either).

No, who is Jesus talking to? Believers. He reminds them He is their Lord, and tells them to watch. They cannot watch if He’s referring to His second coming. Simply put. They did not know about the rapture, even though we can see it clearly now.

Matt. 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.​
The "ones taken" in the catching away are believers that are in the body of Christ. They have already been judged regarding salvation. They only judgment left for them is rewards at the judgment seat of Christ.
Exactly. The “ones taken” in Matthew 24:40-41
The rapture is portrayed quite clearly in Matthew 24.

The disciples were asking about the end of this age and when Jesus would return to set up the kingdom, but He answered them instead about the signs leading up to the end of the church age…..the rapture. He was speaking to them first in v 2 about the temple 70 AD. Then He is telling them of what they would have to endure before the end of the church age, which is until the rapture. After that Jesus speaks of the Antichrist which leads to Jacob’s trouble. “Let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains”, and that portion refers to the second coming. We are told to learn a parable from the fig tree, and then gave examples of Noah’s ark. That ark is the rapture of the church…..symbolically. Sort of like God’s divorce.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I may be missing something or just catching something not on point for thread: Connection between miracles and prophecy in thread? (just trying to follow, I don't always engage, enjoying it rather).

I agree. Is there an overall approach to Israel today for the Christian? Pray for them certainly, but anything for us to do politically? I have a thread, if this isn't the place for it, but you explain a bit further:

Again, if off topic please ignore: Do we as Christians have any mandate toward the current nation? In a nutshell, I'd always assumed we were to support Israel and had never thought we shouldn't. Some of the current happenings have me wondering if/what/when my part in any of it, which does intimate prophecy on thread topic. For me: How do I apply this thread in that narrow question or more broadly?

Agree on point but I also see Matthew 24 with immediate fulfillment, most specifically to the disciples. I concede there may be double fulfillment, but do believe Matthew 24 happened already.
Only the enemy would be suggesting the Israel of today is not God’s chosen nation.
Do people even read or believe the Bible? It’s in prophecies. Pray for understanding as you read them. Share the Gospel, they are ripe for the hearing.

Of course the enemy is hard at work deceiving even the elect, if possible. Why in the world are members of the body of Christ denying what they can see with their very eyes? What, God is not able? Have the sun, moon, and stars ceased to exist?

Jeremiah 31:35-37
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. 37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.​
The people of Israel still worship God. They are way ahead of us in their knowledge of the Word of God. We should be praying for them as they have much suffering ahead. Pray for God’s chosen people, thanks to them we gentiles now have access to their Olive tree.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lon

Right Divider

Body part
No, that makes no sense. That Isn’t what happened. The flood didn’t take one and leave the other. The flood took all those not taken up in the ark.


No, who is Jesus talking to? Believers. He reminds them He is their Lord, and tells them to watch. They cannot watch if He’s referring to His second coming. Simply put. They did not know about the rapture, even though we can see it clearly now.
Matt. 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.​

Exactly. The “ones taken” in Matthew 24:40-41
The rapture is portrayed quite clearly in Matthew 24.

The disciples were asking about the end of this age and when Jesus would return to set up the kingdom, but He answered them instead about the signs leading up to the end of the church age…..the rapture. He was speaking to them first in v 2 about the temple 70 AD. Then He is telling them of what they would have to endure before the end of the church age, which is until the rapture. After that Jesus speaks of the Antichrist which leads to Jacob’s trouble. “Let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains”, and that portion refers to the second coming. We are told to learn a parable from the fig tree, and then gave examples of Noah’s ark. That ark is the rapture of the church…..symbolically. Sort of like God’s divorce.
I'm going to have to ignore you. You clearly cannot see anything that goes against what you already believe.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I'm going to have to ignore you. You clearly cannot see anything that goes against what you already believe.
I’ve been around this text for a great many years, hearing many versions, including views here on TOL. Forgive me if I dared to share what the Lord has been showing me of late. At least I’m not so stuck on my own ideas that I claim the Israel today is an imposter. 🤣
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lon

Lon

Well-known member
Only the enemy would be suggesting the Israel of today is not God’s chosen nation.
Do people even read or believe the Bible? It’s in prophecies. Pray for understanding as you read them. Share the Gospel, they are ripe for the hearing.
Yes, but there seems to be reservations today. I'm just asking.
Of course the enemy is hard at work deceiving even the elect, if possible. Why in the world are members of the body of Christ denying what they can see with their very eyes? What, God is not able? Have the sun, moon, and stars ceased to exist?

Jeremiah 31:35-37
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: 36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. 37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.​
The people of Israel still worship God. They are way ahead of us in their knowledge of the Word of God. We should be praying for them as they have much suffering ahead. Pray for God’s chosen people, thanks to them we gentiles now have access to their Olive tree.
I don't believe they are way ahead because with all their learning, they on the whole have rejected their only Messiah.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Yes, but there seems to be reservations today. I'm just asking.

I don't believe they are way ahead because with all their learning, they on the whole have rejected their only Messiah.
They’ve always rejected their Messiah, and He’s always taken them back.

And, they are way ahead of the rest of this heathen world. Even America is filled with violence and hatred, allying good evil and evil good. As a whole, the entire world has rejected God, which is why Judgement is on the horizon.

Have you read the prophets, God has not forsaken His people whom He foreknew. Even this ungodly antisemitism has been predicted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lon

glorydaz

Well-known member
@Right Divider I know you’re ignoring me, but this is an important question. Are you saying this is at the Lord’s second coming? The “ones taken“ in Matthew 24 are taken to judgement?

“(24:39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (24:40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (24:41) Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.​

The "ones taken" for like in Noah's day. Note that the flood "took them all away". That is a generalization about those that DIED in the flood due to God's judgment.​

The "ones taken" in Matthew 24 are taken to judgment (and not a good one either).”​
How can that be if life is going on as usual? This must be before the wrath or life wouldn’t be going on as normal. This coming of the Son of man is without wrath….before the flood comes.

Matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 

Lon

Well-known member
@Right Divider I know you’re ignoring me, but this is an important question. Are you saying this is at the Lord’s second coming? The “ones taken“ in Matthew 24 are taken to judgement?​
“(24:39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (24:40) Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (24:41) Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.​

The "ones taken" for like in Noah's day. Note that the flood "took them all away". That is a generalization about those that DIED in the flood due to God's judgment.​

The "ones taken" in Matthew 24 are taken to judgment (and not a good one either).”​
Might have been me? I believe much of Matthew 24 has already occurred. I see Jesus' words as applying to 'this generation' but also would put Matthew 24:30, 35-51 as final judgement, thus unfolding of immediate and further into the future. I also see all of it applying most directly to Israel, though certainly everybody is involved in final judgment: the righteous to life, and wicked to everlasting detriment.
How can that be if life is going on as usual? This must be before the wrath or life wouldn’t be going on as normal. This coming of the Son of man is without wrath….before the flood comes.

Matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
My present thoughts, and I'm working on my eschatology, is that this is specifically Israel. Two of them, one of them will come to the Lord, the other taken away. I could be incorrect, but I believe gentiles have gotten this part wrong. I'm not sure I'm altogether right, just where I'm at in contemplating Matthew 24. I'm unsure of the Mid Acts position.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Might have been me?

It wasn’t, but I appreciate your responding.
I believe much of Matthew 24 has already occurred. I see Jesus' words as applying to 'this generation' but also would put Matthew 24:30, 35-51 as final judgement, thus unfolding of immediate and further into the future. I also see all of it applying most directly to Israel, though certainly everybody is involved in final judgment: the righteous to life, and wicked to everlasting detriment.
It looks like we see Jacob’s troubles starting in verse 16. Let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains. This occurs after they reject the Antichrist. This leads up to great tribulation. They won’t be eating and drinking marrying and given in marriage as Jesus describes from verse 36 concerning ”that day”. THAT day is not the second coming. Read it see what you think.
My present thoughts, and I'm working on my eschatology, is that this is specifically Israel. Two of them, one of them will come to the Lord, the other taken away. I could be incorrect, but I believe gentiles have gotten this part wrong. I'm not sure I'm altogether right, just where I'm at in contemplating Matthew 24. I'm unsure of the Mid Acts position.
It’s easy to chalk up everything to Israel there in Matthew 24, but it isn’t taking into account that Jesus is talking about both of His comings. The second coming is described from verse 16 to 31. Clearly, the elect are gathered from the four winds….just as prophesied

If it’s speaking of Israel concerning the one taken and one left behind. When is it that things are going along normally, and out of the blue, some are taken and some left behind? Only at the rapture do we see a sudden exit, as we see portrayed here.

What is still ahead for Israel? Peace and safety when the Antichrist first shows up? None are taken or left behind there, except for the rapture. We know it can’t be during Jacob’s trouble when they’re having to run for their lives.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lon

Bladerunner

Active member
They were scattered centuries earlier during the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. The 10 lost tribes were scattered.
There are no lost tribes.
Corinth, Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, they all had communities from Palestine and they all contributed to the initial fairly wide spread of the earliest Church. There were Church members who were members of that community's local synagogue. They were part of the soil the Gospel seed was originally sown in, by Paul, and by those who preceded Paul (for example those present during Pentecost in early Acts, 2:10-11 or thereabouts I think). A lot of that seed found purchase in that soil.
That's right. The throne of David is obviously not currently in Jerusalem, if it exists at all anywheree tr

The Throne of David is real and Jesus will sit upon it very soon.
 

Bladerunner

Active member
People have a hard time with that verse, but He also told us no one knows the day nor hour…only the Father in heaven. Personally, I’m drawn back to that video Clete just posted. Is it wrong to lie or be vague or use the carrot and the stick?
Yes
We are to live our lives as if each moment could be our last, and that is why we‘re always being told to watch. Jesus didnt lie, He just didn’t tell them the whole story. He wanted them to live their lives expectantly….just like the virgins with the lamps.
The 5 foolish virgins turned away from Jesus and then when He came to get the other 5, they wanted to join in. This is how it will be for multitudes. For when the Rapture happens and it will, there will be multitudes of the "foolish virgin" type who decided to become of the world until. At this time, these multitudes will have to lose their heads to show their faith and love to Jesus Christ.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Yes

The 5 foolish virgins turned away from Jesus and then when He came to get the other 5, they wanted to join in. This is how it will be for multitudes. For when the Rapture happens and it will, there will be multitudes of the "foolish virgin" type who decided to become of the world until. At this time, these multitudes will have to lose their heads to show their faith and love to Jesus Christ.
I’m beginning to think we may see the Antichrist come into power first. For a long time, I didn’t. I was always way pre-trib. Now I think we’ll see more of the tribulation than I thought.

Speaking of THAT day (our gathering together with Him), will not come until that man of sin is revealed.

2 Thess. 2:1-3.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Jesus claimed to be a door, and God is described as having wings.
John 10:7. Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.​

Psalms 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.​

God hates divorce. Therefore, anything that suggests that He Himself is guilty of divorce has got to be error. Therefore, God is merely using language the people would understand. Like being the Good Shepherd.

Malachi 2:14-16.
14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. 15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. 16 For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the Lord of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.​
It seems at this point that you are just being stubborn, preferring to believe your doctrine over the text of scripture.

God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and yet they die all the time and He Himself has killed a great many of them and so your argument about God hating divorce and therefore didn't do it fails. More importantly, the thing "that suggests that He Himself is guilty of divorce" is the bible itself quoting God Himself speaking....

Jeremiah 3:8 Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.​

Further, note your own phrasing, "anything that suggests that He Himself is guilty of divorce". Divorce for proper cause is not a sin, glorydaz. God is not "guilty" of anything.

As for the point about God being a door and having wings...

The point you're making is that God is making an analogy with this talk about divorce, and to a certain degree that's true. It is a metaphor, but that doesn't help you because the act that God has performed is the same and God never likens Himself to having performed anything that is in anyway unrighteous.

Further still, as I've pointed out a few times already, the book of Lamentations is the divorce decree that God gave to Israel and so any way you cut it. God did divorce Israel. So says God Himself!

I decided to ask Chat GPT to tell me why someone would interpret Lamentations as a divorce decree. This is what it responded with....

Covenant Lawsuit Structure in Lamentations

The riv or covenant lawsuit is a common literary form in the prophetic literature of the Hebrew Bible. In this structure, God is depicted as bringing a formal legal case against His people, accusing them of covenant violation, particularly their unfaithfulness and disobedience. This type of literary form includes accusations, proclamations of judgment, and often a call for repentance. The riv genre is instrumental in understanding the theological framework of Lamentations as it parallels the idea of a divorce decree.

Here’s a deeper look at how the riv structure is seen in Lamentations and its connection to the theme of divorce:


A. The Accusation of Breach of Covenant

  • In the Bible, covenant violations often involve idolatry, injustice, and disobedience to God’s commands (e.g., Hosea 4:1-2, Micah 6:1-2). In the case of Judah, the primary accusation is that the people have forsaken God, turning to idolatry and disregarding the covenantal relationship they were bound to uphold.
  • Lamentations expresses this breach in vivid terms. For example, Lamentations 1:5 describes how the people of Jerusalem were oppressed due to their sin: “Her adversaries have become the master, her enemies prosper; for the Lord has afflicted her because of the multitude of her transgressions.” The city's downfall is a direct result of the breach of covenant, which reflects the marital unfaithfulness that leads to divorce.

B. The Declaration of Judgment

  • In the structure of the riv, the judgment following the accusation is essential. In prophetic books like Isaiah, Hosea, and Ezekiel, this judgment is often severe, describing exile or destruction as a consequence of the breach of the covenant. In Lamentations, the judgment is evident in the description of the city's desolation, the destruction of the temple, the famine, and the suffering of the people.
  • Lamentations 2:2 says, “The Lord has swallowed up and not pitied all the habitations of Jacob; He has thrown down in His wrath the strongholds of the daughter of Judah. He has brought them down to the ground; He has profaned the kingdom and its princes.” This devastating judgment can be seen as the consequence of the divorce. God, in His judgment, has cast Israel (Judah) away, leaving the city desolate.

C. Call for Repentance and Restoration

  • One of the hallmarks of the riv genre is that after the accusations and judgments, there is often a plea for repentance and reconciliation. In Lamentations, this is reflected in the prayers and appeals to God for mercy and restoration, even amidst the severe judgment.
  • Lamentations 5:21, for instance, expresses a desire for God to restore the broken relationship: “Turn us back to You, O Lord, and we will be restored; renew our days as of old.” This petition implies that even though the "divorce" or separation has occurred, there is still hope for reconciliation.
  • The appeal is reminiscent of the covenantal language used in texts like Hosea 2:14-15, where God promises to restore Israel: “Therefore, behold, I will allure her, will bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfort to her.” Though the divorce has taken place, the possibility of a renewed relationship remains, a theme of divine grace and the unbreakable nature of God’s covenant love.

D. The Legal and Formal Nature of the Divorce

  • In ancient Israelite law, a divorce was a formal procedure (Deuteronomy 24:1-4), and the use of riv in the prophets suggests a similarly formal legal process when God pronounces judgment. In this context, the language of Lamentations—the mourning, the acknowledgment of God’s anger, and the sense of abandonment—fits the pattern of a legal declaration of separation.
  • However, the book does not end with a final rejection. The ongoing hope for restoration in Lamentations 5 mirrors the legal possibilities for reconciliation in Jewish law, where a divorced woman could return to her husband if he chose to take her back. This hints at the possibility of a future restoration between God and Israel, despite the formal separation.

Summary: The Riv Structure and Divorce

The riv structure helps to explain the theological depth of Lamentations as a form of legal accusation and judgment against Israel for breaking the covenant, with the language of divorce resonating throughout the text. The book portrays the intense consequences of Israel's unfaithfulness—loss, desolation, and separation from God—yet it also leaves room for a hopeful reconciliation, as seen in the final prayer for restoration. This dual focus on judgment and potential restoration aligns with the biblical portrayal of divorce as a painful, but not necessarily final, severance, leaving open the possibility of healing and renewal within the covenantal relationship.
 
Top