Right Divider
Body part
I do, both on the laptop and the cell phone.
Yes, I was specifically talking about using the tablet without an external keyboard/mouse.
That's why I mentioned getting them.
Is Prophecy Being Fulfilled in the Dispensation of Grace?
- Thread starter Right Divider
- Start date
That's why I mentioned getting them.
glorydaz
Well-known member
God says lots of things that men think they understand, and there are many different opinions about what He uhas said. Perhaps if people gave that some consideration these conversations might be more profitable for all.
God’s being faithful is not just to the body of Christ.
Psalm 89:
I will sing of the mercies of the Lord for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations. 2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens. 3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, 4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
Yes, let’s all watch what we say.
God had Hosea act out the message He was sending to Israel. A living proverb or an illustration. Hosea was to present a living example of God and Israel’s idolatry. Hosea was the long suffering husband, and the very fact that God had Hosea take her back (in spite of the threat of divorce which was quite common…..if they didn’t leave the yard, it was not an actual divorce, and God proves it by having Hosea pay the full price to buy her back from her “companions”. Just go read further… we see Gomer is bought back while still in sin. God keeps Coming back and giving chance after chance. That is not a divorce. It’s a threat of divorce.
Hosea 3:1-2
Then said the Lord unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the Lord toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine. So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:
I would love to look into this further, but I think this sentiment sums up God’s heart here and with Gomer, “Turn, O backsliding children, for I am married to unto you…. It sounds to me like God goes back and forth, not a contradiction, but is pulling out all the stops to get Israel and Judah to repent. We see many examples of this in the Bible.
I do believe this issue is critically important. For if God were to ”divorce” Israel, then He cannot be trusted. He has stated, through the prophets, that Israel would never cease being a nation before Him. He hates divorce, and I don’t believe it was ever more than a threat. Remember how God was going to destroy Nineveh, and how He threatened to kill Aaron? God does this kind of stuff when we donkey down.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Both
Not an accurate thought.
Understand your position, I just don’t agree with it, and your explanations are not succinct. Try harder.
Ah, I like that, and I‘ll turn it around on you. Perhaps your long-winded posts are to cover up the fact that your “irrefutable“ argument does not comport with the Truth.
Consider that one.
I mean, it's not like I'm asking you to do anything you haven't done before. You are a Christian, no? You've submitted to the truth at least once in your life. All I'm asking you to do is submit to the truth, to reconsider your position. Question it, challenge it, put it through the wringer.
In other words:
Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. . . . Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.” But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 2:14-16, 2 Timothy 2:19-26 - New King James Version
Approved and Disapproved Workers - Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But...www.biblegateway.com
Thankfully, I’m not so mired in one particular doctrine that I’ve been blinded to being patient thus apt to teach.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yes, but we aren’t there yet, are we? Israel has been gathered back to the land. That is an answer to their prayers. “Next year in Israll” has been their plea. For centuries they have been scattered. Even that scattering has been God dealing with Israel. The land itself being restored in preparation of their return has all been predicted in the Bible. We live in exciting times.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Depends whether you believe Christ sat on David's throne.
Every early church was started in or around synagogues established by the scattered descendants of Abraham.
Still though, where is David's throne rn? Not in Israel.
Right Divider
Body part
glorydaz
Well-known member
I hear He’s supposed to once He descends upon the Mt. of Olives…..maybe even splits it from what I hear.
I don’t think that’s exactly so.
Scattered? Do you mean when the Temple was destroyed by Rome in 70 AD?
David’s throne has alway been situated right there by where the Dome of the Rock sits today.
Right there in Jerusalem, where else?
glorydaz
Well-known member
A generation.
glorydaz
Well-known member
This verse from Ezekiel has got to be speaking of the this last scattering in 70AD, not when they went into Babylonian captivity. That was only for 70 years and didn’t involve nations and countries.
Ezekiel 12 And they shall know that I am the Lord, when I shall scatter them among the nations, and disperse them in the countries.
Notice on the gathering, and the word THEN first they are scattered for close to 2000, then they are gathered, and THEN they shall dwell in their land.
Ezekiel 28:25
Thus saith the Lord God; When Ishall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
You said you were on an iOS device so I'm no help to you on that! Sorry.
The problem is that you don't get to turn God's words into some nebulous allegory just because you want to. How is it not superior to take God to mean what He seems to mean by the plain reading unless you have some really clearly definable reason that would require you to do otherwise?
In other words, I don't deny that there are all kinds of different ways things are written in the bible. There are figures of speech on practically every single page, there are allegories (parables), there's poetry, pithy sayings that are generalizations, etc and I have absolutely no problem at all taking those to be what they are. If we are discussing a passage in Proverbs, for example, I'd be arguing that the statement is likely a generalization that isn't always true and that cannot be taken as though it were a law of nature. If we were talking about a Psalm then I'd be forced to take into consideration the fact that the wording may be what it is for artistic reasons and that it might not be wise to take it quite as literally as some other passage. This Isaiah chapter 3 passage, however, is not a passage where there is any indication that God doesn't mean just exactly what He said and what could it mean other than what it says anyway? If God didn't give Israel a certificate of divorce then what does it mean when God Himself says, "I put her away and gave here a certificate of divorce"? Where is there anywhere to go with that sentence other than to understand it to mean just what it says?
The passage you quoted is talking about Christ's faithfulness to the Body of Christ and it specifically states that it is because He cannot deny Himself. God feels no obligation to cling to the unfaithful. He quite often killed people who were unfaithful. He wiped out practically the entire population of the planet because of unfaithfulness. When the representatives of the people came to gripe about things to Moses, God sucked them all alive down into Hell.
God is indeed faithful to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob, as well as all of those who put their trust in Him. You didn't think I was suggesting that God was untrustworthy, did you? If so, then can we at least try to stay on the same page with each other here? Our disagreement does not extend all the way to the righteous character of God.
It still means what it says though, Glorydaz. It doesn't mean the opposite of what it says, right?
Maybe I don't understand the point you're making here.
I don't disagree with this except that the text very clearly indicates that God gave Israel (a.k.a. "Ephraim" - the northern kingdom) a certificate of divorce and I know more than one bible scholar, one in particular that I have very excellent reason to trust very much, that teaches that the entire book of Lamentations is God's divorce decree (although I admit that I cannot establish that myself at this time).
What? WHY???
And it hasn't! Judah was not divorced and even if it had been, God is able to preserve a remnant and return to His bride.
Except that the text of God's word put the following words into God's own mouth....
""I [God] had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce"
I get that God threatens destruction and then repents when the situation calls for it per Jeremiah 18, but this isn't a threat. God Himself says that He "had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce" - past tense. God WOULD HAVE not done so had Ephraim repented but she did not....
Jeremiah 3:7 And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘Return to Me.’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. 8 Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.
Indeed, Israel's current condition of being cut off is also due to her own stubborn unfaithfulness, not God's! Paul, in Romans 9 explains how the principle taught in Jeremiah 18 has been carried out against Israel. God wanted to give them their kingdom and send Jesus back to sit on David's throne for a thousand years but they hated the King and so instead of giving them their kingdom, He cut the off and turned instead to the Gentiles and once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, He intends to return to Israel again. So, God has this pattern of returning over and over again to Israel throughout the scriptures. I think the reason you're sort of freaked out by the idea of God giving Ephraim a certificate of divorce is because you have this idea that it means He can't return to her, which of course He can and will if and when she repents.
Right Divider
Body part
WOW... your confirmation bias is just off the charts.
Again, provide some SUPPORT for this claim.
NOTE that the Jews were scattered well BEFORE 70 AD. The books of James and 1st Peter were likely written well before that date and they BOTH speak to Israelite's "scattered abroad".
Jas 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
1Pet 1:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Again, the ASSUMPTION of this "fact".
Note, AGAIN, that Israel does NOT currently possess ALL of the land that God promised to Jacob (i.e., ISRAEL). THEY cannot be the "nation of Israel" while others own much of THEIR land.
Answer the question please.
glorydaz
Well-known member
God makes all kinds of threats, just like any parent. Clean your room or you’ll get no dessert. Like any parent, God follows through when it furthers the child along. Sometimes a belt is required.
I find it interesting that God’s intention was for Israel to lead, and their failure to do so resulted in a very long exile, which opened the door to the gentiles. Lucky us.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I may have to respond to this post parts at a time. please bear with me.
Personally I don’t care whether God divorced Israel or not, but I know it’s symbolic because the marriage itself is symbolic. God isn’t actually married to Israel, therefore any talk of divorce is symbolic, as well. It’s a covenant relationship between Almighty God and a people. Therefore the plain reading has to be viewed through that lens. If it were a marriage, God would not be able to remarry unfaithful Israel, as that would be against the law.
Here, God is asking Israel for the proof, because the woman is always given a certificate of divorcement, and the payment from where He’d supposedly sent her (off to Babylon), He says you have sold yourselves. He isn’t taking the blame, and is demanding the proof. Prove I divorced her.
Isaiah 50:1. Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Must you?
Those are referring to the Diaspora after the destruction of the first temple, and the Babylonian captivity.
I’m talking about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, and the scattering that resulted.
That’s quite an assumption.
God knows the boundaries of the land, but the nation is planted in the Holy Land. In less than a century, the land has come alive, the Hebrew language has returned. In fact, the language pretty much died out after 70 AD, but it has revived and is the official language since they became a nation in 1948. Is it just a coincidence that they happen to be Jewish, and not only has their land, language been revived, but the people are being drawn there as we speak.
glorydaz
Well-known member
@Clete You stated this, and I’m a bit confused.
How do you explain that it was Jesus back there doing all those horrible things? He is with and is God from the beginning.
That passage I quoted was about God from which the Messiah comes. I see no way you can separate the two.
Just trying to stay on the same page.
“The passage you quoted is talking about Christ's faithfulness to the Body of Christ and it specifically states that it is because He cannot deny Himself. God feels no obligation to cling to the unfaithful. He quite often killed people who were unfaithful. He wiped out practically the entire population of the planet because of unfaithfulness. When the representatives of the people came to gripe about things to Moses, God sucked them all alive down into Hell.
God is indeed faithful to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob, as well as all of those who put their trust in Him. You didn't think I was suggesting that God was untrustworthy, did you? If so, then can we at least try to stay on the same page with each other here? Our disagreement does not extend all the way to the righteous character of God.”
How do you explain that it was Jesus back there doing all those horrible things? He is with and is God from the beginning.
That passage I quoted was about God from which the Messiah comes. I see no way you can separate the two.
Just trying to stay on the same page.