Right Divider
Body part
No, it's not an assumption at all.That’s quite an assumption.
Is Prophecy Being Fulfilled in the Dispensation of Grace?
- Thread starter Right Divider
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glorydaz
Well-known member
@Clete you said,
That‘s why God said, where are those divorce papers if I divorced her….in Isaiah 50:1.
That‘s because He was threatening Israel, waving them over her head if she didn’t turn from her idolatry.
Besides, God hates divorce. It’s a fine piece of symbolism, though, and making Hosea act it out was priceless.
“Indeed, Israel's current condition of being cut off is also due to her own stubborn unfaithfulness, not God's! Paul, in Romans 9 explains how the principle taught in Jeremiah 18 has been carried out against Israel. God wanted to give them their kingdom and send Jesus back to sit on David's throne for a thousand years but they hated the King and so instead of giving them their kingdom, He cut the off and turned instead to the Gentiles and once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, He intends to return to Israel again. So, God has this pattern of returning over and over again to Israel throughout the scriptures. I think the reason you're sort of freaked out by the idea of God giving Ephraim a certificate of divorce is because you have this idea that it means He can't return to her, which of course He can and will if and when she repents.”
Yes, and you just showed how this is not a divorce, by saying “over and over again”, because under Judaic Law, the husband would be forbidden to return to the adulterous wife. Deut. 24:4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
That‘s why God said, where are those divorce papers if I divorced her….in Isaiah 50:1.
That‘s because He was threatening Israel, waving them over her head if she didn’t turn from her idolatry.
Besides, God hates divorce. It’s a fine piece of symbolism, though, and making Hosea act it out was priceless.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Prove it.
Yes, I am a big fan of prophecy. Even more as we see the day approaching.
And, I suggest you read on in Hosea. Getting stuck on one name will keep you from seeing the Truth.
The evidence is right before our very eyes. To claim this is not the Israel of the Bible, and we aren’t seeing fulfillment of prophecy is truly sticking your head in the sand. Just because the surrounding countries are still holding ground?
The reason it was forbidden (and ONLY for Israel, mind you, iow, it's not some absolute law that you can't remarry the same person you divorced) was to show just how special Israel was to God!
Don't feel obligated to respond to any point where responding doesn't move the discussion forward. If something critical gets skipped then it'll come up again.
The law does not prohibit remarriage of a divorced wife so long as she hasn't taken another husband.
The "her" in that passage is Judah, not "Israel" (a.k.a. Ephraim or the northern kingdom).
glorydaz
Well-known member
That sounds like pure conjecture to me. First, you rightly point out it was a law for Israel. Since God was supposedly marrying Israel, who was under the Law of Moses, then He would be placing Himself under the law. Two become one flesh. God would also be breaking His own moral law He gave when He created man. Matthew speaks of it here.
Matthew 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
God hates divorce. This talk of divorce is symbolic, and well worth looking into. Studying the prophets is very satisfying. Watching how God has dealt, and is dealing, and will deal more in the future with the nation of Israel. There is much suffering ahead for them, but one day the remnant will turn to Him.
Personally, I don’t think that will happen until Messiah sets up His kingdom.
I don't separate the two. I'm not sure I understand where the question is coming from. I'm going to make a guess and speak to that guess....@Clete You stated this, and I’m a bit confused.
“The passage you quoted is talking about Christ's faithfulness to the Body of Christ and it specifically states that it is because He cannot deny Himself. God feels no obligation to cling to the unfaithful. He quite often killed people who were unfaithful. He wiped out practically the entire population of the planet because of unfaithfulness. When the representatives of the people came to gripe about things to Moses, God sucked them all alive down into Hell.
God is indeed faithful to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob, as well as all of those who put their trust in Him. You didn't think I was suggesting that God was untrustworthy, did you? If so, then can we at least try to stay on the same page with each other here? Our disagreement does not extend all the way to the righteous character of God.”
How do you explain that it was Jesus back there doing all those horrible things? He is with and is God from the beginning.
That passage I quoted was about God from which the Messiah comes. I see no way you can separate the two.
Just trying to stay on the same page.
The only way I can see where there would be a conflict is in a misunderstanding of II Timothy 2:13
2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
The key to understanding it is the phrase "He cannot deny Himself". In other words, the only reason God remains faithful to us as members of the Body of Christ is because we are just that, members of the Body of Christ. We are identified IN HIM. We have no standing at all before God aside from the righteousness of Christ which has been imputed to us. Further, we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit as an earnest, a guarantee. The terminology Paul uses here is amazingly awesome because it means that God would have to literally forfeit His own Spirit if He "backed out of the deal", to continue the analogy implied by the term "earnest". God cannot do that! God cannot deny Himself and thus our salvation is secure as it can be!
NONE OF THAT pertains to any group of believers other than the Body of Christ, those saved under Paul's gospel of grace. It most certainly does not apply to Israel which had a covenant of law, not grace and the threat of being cut off for having failed to obey God's commands was made repeatedly and was carried out more than once.
It is literally the difference between law and grace. The law brings about wrath and death whereas the Spirit brings life! (Note the capital "S"! This is NOT the spirit of the law but the Spirit of God.)
Does that answer the question?
I showed no such thing. You have a faulty idea about divorce that the scripture doesn't support. It does not have to be permanent.
Maybe it would be a good practice for you to not quote single verses by themselves because doing so often can be used to say something contrary to what is actually being said. Verse 4 is not a categorical prohibition against a man remarrying a previously divorced wife. Rather, a man could not remarried a divorced wife IF she had taken another husband. Read the verse again but this time in modern English and with verses 1-3 included...
Deut 24:1“When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, 2 when she has departed from his house, and goes and becomes another man’s wife, 3 if the latter husband detests her and writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her as his wife, 4 then her former husband who divorced her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is [an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.
No, as is clearly stated in the passage itself, the divorce papers were served to "Israel" (the northern Kingdom) and NOT to Judah, which today carries the collective term of "Israel".
That simply isn't what the text says. God Himself is quoted as saying that He had given (past tense) a certificate of divorce.
Try as you might, you will not overcome this single point. I just cannot image why you're even trying to do so.
God does indeed hate divorce but He does allow it and for good reason. Divorce IS NOT inherently evil. There are several good reasons for people to get divorced some of which would be sinful to overlook.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Sounds good. I notice how things keep popping up, even from days ago.
If she hasn’t taken another husband?
Deut. 24:1. When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. 2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. 3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
Deut. 24:1. When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. 2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. 3 And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;
4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Notice a few things, especially the sending out part. God says in Isaiah 50:1 that He had no part in that. I see there, too, that He is taking no blame for Israel’s sojourn in Babylon. The word defiled speaks of idolatry, and that is the required “another husband”.
I haven’t looked into the split much and you’ve peaked my interest on that of late. I do know that all of Israel will be saved, so there are lots of nuggets hidden I need to look into.
glorydaz
Well-known member
@Clete. I must respond to this before I do the rest of your post.
“God does indeed hate divorce but He does allow it and for good reason. Divorce IS NOT inherently evil. There are several good reasons for people to get divorced some of which would be sinful to overlook.”
I never once suggested divorce is inherently evil. I’ve been down that road myself. God allows divorce because we are not yet perfect. Which is why He gave the Law in the first place. You say yourself “good reasons for PEOPLE to get divorced”.
My argument is a simple one, and not at all an uncommon one. My point is that God is not a man and Israel is not a woman. Thus, it’s down right odd that anyone would claim God is married or under the law for marriage. So quibbling about the law doesn’t make any sense. God is speaking symbolically. Period. It’s about a covenant and a promise. An eternal promise.
Right Divider
Body part
Gaza
What is "the day"?
Again, claims without support... ad nauseam.
Prove it.
It's an important fact. Don't bury your head in the sand.Just because the surrounding countries are still holding ground?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Actually, there is quite a bit of land that Israel is not in control of yet, and may not be until the Lord returns. They’ve had to fight every step of the way since being back in the land. To get where they are and keep what they have has been miraculous. The nation is only 76 years old. How much land did the US have when our nation was only 76 years old?
The day can be the day of the rapture or the day of the Lord….His second coming.
There are signs for both as I’m sure you know. Matthew 24 speaks of both, the rapture and the second coming.
Bladerunner
Active member
were the jewish people scattered in 70 AD, NO----they were killed....about a million of them. the rest simply fled to the surrounding country side as did the Christians of that City.
They were not scattered until around 125AD...Emporer Hadrian. The scattered the Jews, and rebuilt Aelia Capitolina over the city of David....which is why they have to dig for it today..He plowed it under literally.
They are dwelling in their land today...just not all of it, Yet.
This speaks of the Israel, All of it during the Millennium and beyond.
Bladerunner
Active member
GloryDaz you are right that GOD cannot take them back as a wife.Yet, through Grace, the Remnant of Israel shall receive the New Covenant.. This is the same covenant of the Church. With their sins forgiven, they can again reunite
rem 2/3 of the Jewish population will die during Daniel's 70th week. The Remnant are those that flee Judeah and Jerusalem when they see the Abomination of Desolate by the Anti-christ (satan- Son of Perdition). This will show God they believed His prophecy thus they believed in Him. Is all it will take.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
They were scattered centuries earlier during the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. The 10 lost tribes were scattered. Corinth, Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, they all had communities from Palestine and they all contributed to the initial fairly wide spread of the earliest Church. There were Church members who were members of that community's local synagogue. They were part of the soil the Gospel seed was originally sown in, by Paul, and by those who preceded Paul (for example those present during Pentecost in early Acts, 2:10-11 or thereabouts I think). A lot of that seed found purchase in that soil.
That's right. The throne of David is obviously not currently in Jerusalem, if it exists at all anywhere.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Everything except for Alaska and Hawaii I think. Pretty big.
If David's throne is the whole World's crown, and not just and exclusively the crown of Israel alone, then the whole World would be the same as the land of Israel. What you're calling the land of Israel, and what is called the land of Israel in the Bible, would STILL be Israel, it's just that also Africa and Europe and Asia would also be Israel, because, the throne of David would rule and reign over the whole World, and not just over the land of Israel in the Bible, and not just over people who descend from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but the whole World.
[♪♫]
He's going to sit on the throne of David when He comes. (When He comes.)
He's going to sit on the throne of David when He comes. (When He comes.)
He's going to sit on the throne of David,
He's going to sit on the throne of David,
He's going to sit on the throne of David when He comes.[/♪♫]
Where's the throne of David rn?
Right Divider
Body part
Yes, that's what I've been saying all along. Thanks for finally agreeing.
In the part of the land that they possess.
It's easy to claim a miracle. Prove it.
A complete non-sequitur. There is no legitimate comparison to be made there.
Paul tells us to look for Jesus and the catching away.
He does not tell us to look for fulfilled prophecy for Israel.
We are not Israel.
There is NO sign for the catching away. It comes in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.
1Cor 15:51-52 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (15:52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Jesus did NOT speak about the rapture during His time on earth.
At that time, it was a hidden mystery.
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glorydaz
Well-known member
The entire wife thing is symbolic, so of course God will always take back the people whom He has chosen.
Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Yes, they will finally be brought to their knees, and, through great tribulation will turn to Him.
It might be odd if God Himself didn't explicitly state the He had given Israel a certificate of divorce.
How is that not convincing to you. I truly do not get it!
glorydaz
Well-known member
You crack me up, RD. I‘ve never once claimed they will get all the land back before the Lord returns.
I merely read scripture and accept that as proof when I see it happening before my very eyes.
Let’s face it, you don’t even think the Jews living in Israel today are God’s chosen people. Or are you denying that?
Yes, Paul does tell us about the rapture, and the signs we should watch for as we see the day approach. He cites the prophets as one of the sources of his teaching. Why do you doubt him?
Acts 26:22
Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
But he also tells us about Israel, that they stumble. They aren’t kicked to the curb and REPLACED by the church.
Jesus didn’t speak about the rapture?
Not even a hint?
Actually, He did. Right there in Matthew 24. This is what makes rightly dividing such a wonderful term. THAT day is the day the Son of man comes for the church.
Matthew 24:36-41
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark. 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.